Re: [xmca] a materialist psychology

So, Andy and Martin--

If Andy's changes are acceptable to Martin, where does this leave us?

Does ideality remain in the world, and hence in humans, by virtue of
inhabiting a human made world?
mike

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Martin,
> I agree with your main conclusion about LSV, that it was a *materialist*
> psychology that he aspired to, but could I offer some pretty small change
> "corrections" to your observations?
>
> Hegel's ideas about the origins of human life are surprisingly
> inconsistent with a modern reading of him. He emphatically rejected the idea
> that humans originated from animals or that any animal originated out of
> another animal. He was familiar with Lamarck and rejected this theory out of
> hand. He believed that Spirit was created, as in the Book of Genesis, all at
> once. This doesn't stop us "interpreting" him in a materialist spirit, in
> the light of Darwinism. However, Hegel did believe that consciousness
> originated in labour, child-rearing and speech. But not out of "matter",
> whatever that would mean. The idea of matter having the potential for
> thinking is not a Hegelian idea. Matter is an abstraction of thought, for
> Hegel.
>
> Also, I think that to talk of how "knowledge can ... move beyond
> appearance to reality" is dubious. This retains the idea of a reality hidden
> behind appearances. If there are two kinds of knowledge then I think
> "appearance" and "reality" are not the right names for them. If "appearance"
> and "reality" are meant to be categorically different things, then I think
> Lenin had it right in denying this.
>
> http://marx.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/mec/two1.htm
>
> Andy
>
>
> Martin Packer wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > The more I think about this (and I have been thinking on it some in the
> > interim), the more comfortable I am that Vygotsky indeed insisted on
> > lopping
> > off the idealist side of psychology's dualism. The notion that the stuff
> > of
> > the universe is solely material, and that there is no separate, distinct
> > 'mental stuff' or 'spiritual stuff' has a long and distiguished history,
> > as
> > the BBC program makes clear. A materialist psychology would have been
> > fully
> > in line with Marx's materialism. And even Hegel, despite being labelled
> > an
> > idealist and despite Marx's claim to have turned him on his head,
> > recognized
> > that humans evolved from simpler stuff which must have had its origins
> > in
> > matter. The capacity for thinking, Hegel reasoned, is a potential which
> > is
> > inherent in matter, and develops over time, rather than having its
> > source in
> > some other, etherial, transcendental or platonic realm.
> >
> > Vygotsky's materialist psychology avoids equating the mental with the
> > subjective, or consciousness with appearance as representation. It
> > follows
> > that the study of consciousness is not the study of appearances that are
> > entirely distinct from reality (Kant's vision). It is not the study of
> > the
> > way a person constructs mental representations of a world that exists
> > outside them. For Vygotsky, like Hegel, Marx & Feuerbach, our knowledge
> > can
> > progress, and move beyond appearance to reality. If we accept this, we
> > need
> > to have a different conception of the way humans live in the world.
> > Vygotsky
> > wanted to study the "material, sensory acts" in which a person knows
> > their
> > world. He wanted to study the mind, but not as a mental subject, or
> > subjectivity, related to external objects. This is the way mind appears
> > to
> > itself in introspection, but in action mind is not divided in this way.
> > Mind, and consciousness, are real and objective processes because they
> > exist
> > in the interactions between bodies and material objects. And these can
> > be
> > studied empirically.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > On 5/11/08 1:29 PM, "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > What is your current take on this issue, Martin? Perhaps a followup in
> > > MCA
> > > is warranted?
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > In the article published in MCA that was discussed here recently I
> > > > pointed
> > > > out that in Crisis Vygotsky declared the need to end the dualism in
> > > > psychology by eliminating the idealist pole and developing a
> > > > thoroughly
> > > > materialist psychology. Some of the history of materialism, both in
> > > > its
> > > > reductionist and non-reductionist versions (V¹s being the latter)
> > > > can be
> > > > heard at the link below, in the BBC Radio program In Our Time. At
> > > > the end
> > > > we
> > > > learn that they ran out of time to discuss Hegel and Marx, which is
> > > > rather
> > > > a
> > > > shame. (This is the same program which a year or so ago ran a poll
> > > > in
> > > > which
> > > > Marx was voted the most important philosopher of all time, much to
> > > > host
> > > > Melvyn Bragg¹s surprise and dismay.)
> > > >
> > > > <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/inourtime.shtml>
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
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> >
> >
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> >
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
>
>
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Received on Mon May 12 11:23 PDT 2008