Re: [xmca] more on Vygotsky's relevance

Steve:

Thank you for clarifying. Great insights as always.

eric

      To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
      cc:
      bcc:
      Subject: Re: [xmca] more on Vygotsky's relevance
Steve Gabosch <sgabosch@comcast.net>
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
03/08/2008 10:33 PM EST
Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <font
size=-1></font>

Actually, Eric, you may be misreading one aspect of my message, but
you are also adding a valuable point. My main point is that
Vygotsky's approach appears to take more from Marx than just his
conception of history, although in saying that I don't at all want to
downplay how important that conception of history was to Vygotsky.
Martin does a great job of explaining that importance and showing how
Vygotsky weaved that conception of history into his theory of ontology
and his vision of a new psychology. In addition to that, I am
suggesting that Vygotsky also made careful use of other Marxist ideas,
which were also very important to his work, such as Marxism's
scientific philosophy as developed for example by Engels in Dialectics
of Nature, and Marxism's vision of a socialist future, as exemplified
by the ideas and excitement in the initial years of the Russian
Revolution, which Vygotsky was very much a part of.

Your post reminds us of a point Martin emphasizes, that we can stand
on the shoulders of the Marx's and the Vygotskys of the past, among
many other great thinkers, but we can't use their ideas as strict
blueprints - just as guidelines. For one thing, as Martin points out,
we live in a different time and place, the world has changed, and many
things are different. Vygotsky's work should be "a model to learn
from, not a decontextualized theory to be transplanted" says Martin,
and I think Vygotsky took the same approach to Marx. Vygotsky spoke
of the need for a "Das Kapital" of psychology, using Marx's scientific
and materialist methods of inquiry and discovery about capitalism as a
general model or guideline - not a specific blueprint - for how to
approach creating a new science of human psychology. Martin asks
whether we should "adopt" or "adapt" Vygotsky's conception of
history. I think we can do with Vygotsky what Vygotsky did with Marx
- *adopt* many of his general scientific methods, expanding on them
where we can, but *adapt* his specific ideas to our modern situation,
being careful to understand what laws of motion, universals,
particulars and elements are different. Moreover, science has changed
several times over during the time periods we are talking about. The
science of psychology per se did not even exist in Marx's time (Marx
died in 1883), while Vygotsky had 40 years of new international
research to draw on for his work. And the 75 or so years since
Vygotsky's death has seen that research grow from small mounds to
mountain ranges. Vygotsky's work, like Marx's, must be understood in
the context of his time, and we must use these ideas wisely and
critically when applying and expanding on them today.

Your bringing up Vygotsky's thoughts on the Uzbekistan research
touches on a tease that Martin leaves for us at the end of his paper
regarding that, and another intriguing problem which Vygotsky seems
open to criticism for. Martin puts it this way:

"[Vygotsky's] conception of history underlies two major problems in
his psychology (cf. Packer, 2006). The first is his treatment of
cultural differences as historical differences, and in particular the
characterization of "primitive" forms of consciousness. The second is
the abstract character of his account of child development, and
specifically its lack of attention to social class. These are flaws in
the tool he fashioned that should alert us to the need to construct
our own."

I've been meaning to ask about that 2006 paper - I may have missed
this - is it available online? And are there plans for more
exploration of these problems? I would certainly like to hear more
of Martin's thoughts on them, as of course others ...

Best,
- Steve

On Mar 8, 2008, at 4:43 PM, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:

>
> Steve:
> Great insight regarding Vygotsky's historical view being richer
> in
> discovery then Marx. I would just like to stress that Marx provided
> great
> wealth of thinking for how social scientists should approach the
> methodology of study. Vygotsky had an idea that went beyond Marx that
> pointed out real practices that could make an impact societal change.
> That Vygotsky did not write more of his Uzbekistan studies is
> frustrating
> ( perhaps I am wrong and it is only that his writings on the subject
> are
> not widely available?), but Luria points out in his 1976
> retrospective that
> Vygotsky was of the belief that the results proved non-literate
> people were
> not in full possession of their higher psychological functions.
> Vygotsky's
> plan was to utilize thie theory in his work with the disabled.
> Vygotsky
> theory on literacy has since been discounted by Scribner and Cole's
> contributions to the research of literacy.
>
> Whether the theory was incorrect or not is irrelevant, what is
> relevant is
> Vygotsky's deep desire to study human development as it pertains to
> Marx's
> cultural/historical perspective and then utilize his discoveries in
> the
> practice of societal change. As a framework for his methodology
> Marx was a
> key theorist, however, I agree with Steve that he is only a starting
> point.
> Or have a misread your message Steve?
>
> eric
>
>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> cc:
> bcc:
> Subject: [xmca] more on Vygotsky's relevance
> Steve Gabosch <sgabosch@comcast.net>
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> 03/08/2008 03:39 PM EST
> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <font
> size=-1></font>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There are a lot of things I like about Martin's paper, many already
> touched on. Two immediate standouts for me are the way Martin shows
> how Vygotsky's conception of history is the basis of his approach to
> child development. And I really liked the way Martin draws parallels
> between Vygotsky, Engels and Hegel on freedom and necessity. And
> there is much more.
>
> I am not certain, however, (to stimulate some discussion), that this
> key statement in the paper is quite right: "Marx provided Vygotsky,
> most importantly, with a conception of history."
>
> This seems to be saying that Vygotsky's vision of a new psychology can
> be successfully reduced (more or less) to his Marxist conception of
> history, or to put it another way, that Vygotsky's conception of
> history is the "most" important aspect of Vygotsky's Marxism. I agree
> that his conception of history is essential to his work - I am
> certainly not wanting to downplay that: I am pleased as can be with
> the job Martin did with explaining Vygotsky's conception of history, a
> real contribution to the literature - but I hesitate to lose sight of
> other essential parts of Vygotsky's overall approach.
>
> For example, Vygotsky's philosophical and "methodological" (a favorite
> Marxist term) approach seems especially important as well. The Crisis
> manuscript is loaded with philosophical and methodological concepts,
> not just conceptions of history. His discussion of science and the
> evolution of scientific ideology, for example, is one of the richest I
> have seen in Marxist literature, and very much builds on Engels'
> Dialectics of Nature, which had been recently published in Russian.
> Vygotsky describes the difference between dialectical materialism and
> historical materialism in chapter 13 and argues that what we now call
> "cultural-historical psychology" is an application of dialectical
> materialism that must be distinct from historical materialism because
> it is based on a field of reality that operates under different laws.
>
> Perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way, but it seems to me that
> Vygotsky is doing something much broader and deeper than just being
> provided with and applying a conception of history.
>
> I also wonder if Vygotsky's commitment to socialism, working class
> revolution, and developing a communist human being can be acccurately
> folded under the umbrella "conception of history." Marxists (most
> anyway) don't consider socialism to be an inevitable or determined
> outcome of history, but something that must be struggled for. (Rosa
> Luxembourg famously summarized this uncertainty as "socialism or
> barbarism.") I think Martin lays excellent and very much needed
> groundwork for showing how important Marx's conception of history is
> in Vygotsky's work - picking up on work for example by Sylvia Scribner
> on this, among others - but I wonder if we aren't short-selling LSV
> some if we limit our analysis and emphasis of his vision of a new
> psychology to that piece of the whole.
>
> Another aspect of the paper that stood out for me was Martin's
> argument that the development of "self-mastery," and not just the
> beginning or "intrapsychological" stage of that process,
> internalization, constitutes the heart of Vygotsky's approach to
> ontological development. This very important point seems to shed
> useful light on the unit of analysis/concrete universal/cell of
> psychology discussion, especially when combined with Vygotsky's and
> Luria's work on auxiliary stimulus-means. I find Martin pointing us
> in many very fruitful directions in this paper.
>
> PS. I really like Mike's suggestion that we discuss Martin's paper
> methodically - it really is a gem in the way it clearly lays out so
> many critical questions for students of Vygotsky to consider, and in
> such a clear and accessible writing style.
>
> - Steve
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Received on Sun Mar 9 07:02 PDT 2008