Re: [xmca] latour

Yes, Kevin, I was thinking reading Luiz's note that Ludlow succinctly
expresses my
own views. I look forward to reading it and being to reference a REAL
analytic philosopher
writing now.

Mark C-- It should be clear that there is not a non-beginner in the group.
That's life. As fundamental
as the co-construction of reality/fiction. Or, to call in a heavy weight
poet quoted by that heavyweight
old philospher, John Dewey--

*All experience is an arch wherethrough
gleams that untravelled world
whose margin fades for ever and for ever
when I move. *

At an earlier beginning I used to think that such talk was old people's
nonsense.
Now, as an old-ish person (I still have Jerry Bruner and George Miller and
others way up there ahead of me!)
I encounter such things and begin all over again.

I do know that a former grad student, now prof of communication at San
Marcos, Katherine Brown, compared
ANT and CHAT in her thesis. it was not on mmorgs, but the comparison might
be interesting. There are some
good articles about a decade ago in MCA featuring latour, hutchins,
meitennin, engestrom, and others that
might help you along.
mike

On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Mark Chen <markchen@u.washington.edu> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Luiz (or anyone), I find it ironic that one of the reasons I quit World of
> Warcraft was because I didn't feel like I was *doing* anything, that I
> didn't have *enough* agency. Contrast WoW with good single-player RPGs,
> for
> example, where it is much more true that the player/character can
> effect/affect the world with real game-state changing consequences.
>
> Would a single-player RPG be much more like a book or less like a book?
> On
> the one hand you have more agency and control over where the story goes
> (not
> like book), but on the other, the world doesn't persist and change when
> you
> aren't playing (like a book). Add to this stuff you can find on
> http://www.fanfiction.net and suddenly even static texts become dynamic
> ongoing stories across multiple texts. Layer on top of all this the
> debate
> about whether players in general even care about the story or if they are
> playing to game the system. There seems like there ought to be some sort
> of
> weight given to why players play.
>
> Just food for thought. :)
>
> Also, for my dissertation I plan on looking at Hutchins's portrayal of
> distributed cognition and seeing if it applies to how a raid group in WoW
> works. Like Luiz, I'm just starting this avenue of thought (and honestly,
> I
> feel like everyone knows more than me) coming from (and leaving behind
> because it lacks so much sociocultural allowances) game theory (individual
> vs. collective incentives).
>
> I wonder if ANT vs. Activity Theory would be a good comparison to look at.
>
> mark
>
> On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Kevin Rocap <Kevin.Rocap@liu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Dear Luiz,
> >
> > Thanks for the article; I look forward to it! Ah, Paris...have only
> > ever been in the airport en route to Sri Lanka.
> >
> > Not sure I think reality and fiction are opposites, or, in Mike's terms,
> > an either/or....can also be a both/and, to my way of thinking. Real and
> > fictitious seems perfectly possible, even probable. I think Harry
> > Potter is real in important senses of the word, especially in terms of
> > having a measurable economic impact on the world. And, then, of course,
> > there 's G-d. Real?
> >
> > Sounds though like we may be saying similar things. I don't
> > counter-point reality and fiction which is, perhaps, like your point
> > that there is no absolute view-from-nowhere distinction between reality
> > and fiction. But then what is unreal? What were you...or were
> > you...counter-pointing online games as being like to other people that
> > makes you want to argue for them as "real worlds"? Counter-pointing
> > "real" and "virtual"? Or "real" and "something else"?
> >
> > Anyway, I'll be digesting in Brooklyn
> >
> > In Peace,
> > K.
> >
> > Luiz Carlos Baptista wrote:
> > > Food for thought indeed. I'll spend next week in Paris digesting it :)
> > >
> > > As far as I understand what it's going on in this thread, it is the
> idea
> > > that agents need not be persons. Or, to put it in the analytic flavour
> > I've
> > > been savouring in the last few years, being person is a sufficient,
> > thought
> > > not necessary, condition for being an agent. If that is the point, I
> > must
> > > say I am inclined to agree.
> > >
> > > As a contribution to the discussion, I attach a recent paper by the
> > analytic
> > > philosopher Peter Ludlow (who also happens to be a cyber buff), in
> which
> > he
> > > defends a "contextualist" view of what counts as real. Basically, the
> > idea
> > > is that what counts as real depends on the context, so there is no
> > absolute,
> > > view-from-nowhere distinction between reality and fiction.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Luiz
> > >
> > > **********
> > > "The brain is a wonderful thing. Everybody should have one."
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Kevin Rocap
> > > Sent: sábado, 8 de Março de 2008 19:47
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] latour
> > >
> > > Dear Martin,
> > >
> > > Hm. Definite food for thought.
> > >
> > > At some level since Greimas's usage is targeted at fictional
> characters
> > > as "actors" and, I guess, the deep narrative grammatical/semantic
> > > features of those characters (???) as "actants", isn't this, in a way,
> > > parallel to the roles of motivations, influences and, dare I say,
> > > objects for a live person/live people? Although I'm not oblivious to
> > > the possibility of treating live folks as actors and these things we
> > > commonly refer to as motivations, objects, etc. as "actants", perhaps
> > > you see what I'm grappling with?
> > >
> > > And of course the "characters" in online games are a kind of hybrid,
> > > being caught in a narrative determined, significantly, by the
> parameters
> > > and affordances of the game, but being avatars of living persons (some
> > > of them anyway) as well as having potentially scripted interactions or
> > > mixed scripted and "live" interactions (e.g., Luiz's passive or
> scripted
> > > character, in his absence, could be dealt a blow by an avatar
> controlled
> > > by a living person). But even the "objects" for the living person
> are
> > > forged significantly by the parameters and affordances of the
> underlying
> > > game narrative, no?
> > >
> > > Part of me wants to pull this out of online gaming too. Since online
> > > gaming, being story-like, does, indeed, resemble aspects of novels,
> > > etc. And how do we know what characters in a novel are doing while
> the
> > > book is on the shelf anyway? Even if they do re-assemble themselves
> > > into predictable roles and actions when we re-open the book? (they may
> > > simply not be interested in our interference in their affairs -
> > > fictional autonomy as it were)
> > >
> > > But I think what we are discussing could be described as well with
> > > regard to things like "smart agents". We, live folks, (and I swear
> to
> > > you I am one ;-), do you believe me?) - anyway, we, live folks
> "educate"
> > > smart agents to troll the info-verse for websites, newsgroups, news
> > > items, that may, presumably, be of interest to us, and they do that
> > > while we're absent. So a kind of "real world" of smart agents, a la
> > > your delibrations, Luiz?
> > >
> > > Thanks all.
> > >
> > > In Peace,
> > > K. (Kevin Rocap's avatar - Kevin's busy today packing, by the way)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> --
> Mark Chen | PhD student | Games researcher/designer | Tech instructor
> College of Education - Ed Tech | University of Washington - Seattle
> My games research and life in academia blog: markdangerchen.net
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Received on Sat Mar 8 17:09 PST 2008