Re: [xmca] neoformation

A la Lave and Wenger, all those activities you name, Helena, involve
learning. And they may involve development. But they do not involve a more
capable peer who is attempting to
assist someone to achieve a "new developmental level." On those grounds,
you might say that no zoped could be present. On the other hand, play is
said to create a zoped (by
several in this discussion). So why not confessing to priest (for example?)

mike

On Thu, Feb 7, 2008 at 6:55 AM, Worthen, Helena Harlow <hworthen@ad.uiuc.edu>
wrote:

> Hello --
>
> Sometimes I like to think about the zpd in terms of what is not a zpd
> situation -- that is, something that involves very close interaction between
> people in extended conversation that is highly purposeful but is NOT
> intended to accomplish teaching or learning. For example: deposing a
> witness, confessing to a priest, bargaining a contract. If you took a photo
> of each of these you might think that there was a zpd there somewhere, but I
> don't think there is.
>
> Helena Worthen
>
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf
> Of Mike Cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:36 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] neoformation
>
> Michael. I think your note reinforces what Peter wrote in an odd way.
> the zoped cannot be isolated easily, not measured (perhaps at all, and
> certainly not by standardized techniques, and its contextual aspects are
> enormous. BUT, if you reduce it to scaffolding, "amount of help needed",
> ignore what is written beyond Thought and Language and the
> chapter in mind in society -- in short, if you assimilate it, as I first
> did, to mediated stimulus response learning theory circa 1962, THEN
> it can be assimilated by Americans.
>
> However, if you keep on reading......
> mike
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2008 at 5:16 AM, Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > You know it also might be the other way around, that people in the U.S.
> > are not really that taken with Vygotsky but with the zpd because it fits
> > relatively well in to modern mainstream discourse in the United States
> in
> > studying children (it can be isolated, it can be measured, it measures a
> > particular aspect of the child - cognitive development, its contextual
> > aspects are limited), and they are happy to associate Vygotsky with the
> ZPD.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky
> > Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:06 AM
> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] neoformation
> >
> >
> >
> > I wonder if the idea that "Americans" are heavily focused on the zpd
> comes
> > from the possibility that Mind in Society presented it early as a
> > Vygotskian
> > construct in translation, and it was converted to a new metaphor
> > ("scaffolding") that people can grasp relatively easily (if not
> > particularly
> > deeply in many cases). But I think it's mostly something that's focused
> on
> > by people who haven't read much LSV, which would be most people in the
> US
> > who talk about LSV. The zpd is also something that an ed psych textbook
> > can
> > include that "explains" Vygotsky while covering many perspectives on
> human
> > development or other ed psych topics.
> >
> > But I think that people who read a bit beyond a chapter excerpt from
> Mind
> > in
> > Society look at more than the ZPD. In my view, the problem is that in
> the
> > US, there's a paucity of people who've read beyond the introductory
> > readings, and thus the appearance of a national focus on what's most
> > readily
> > available. Those who've read more tend to put the zpd into the
> perspective
> > of Vygotsky's larger project, I think.
> >
> > Peter Smagorinsky
> > The University of Georgia
> > 125 Aderhold Hall
> > Athens, GA 30602
> > smago@uga.edu/phone:706-542-4507
> > http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > Behalf Of Dot Robbins
> > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 5:05 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [xmca] neoformation
> >
> > Thank many of you for your thoughts on neoformations, ZPD, social
> > situation
> > of development, leading activity....it is interesting to find articles
> > that
> > try to return to the unity of the genetic, structural, and functional
> > analysis of consciousness and development. And, when in Moscow in the
> > past,
> > I was asked numerous times why there is such a focus on the ZPD in the
> > West,
> > as opposed to critical/non-critical times of development neoformations,
> > etc.
> > The only answer I had (and correct me if this is wrong) is that in the
> > USA,
> > to my understanding, there are certainly many clinical psychologists who
> > use
> > Luria's ideas, but fewer psychologists who use Vygotsky's ideas
> (assuming
> > that the majority of Vygotskians [certainly not all] in the USA are in
> > some
> > form of education). So, I continually look for articles that try to
> > refocus
> > on basic issues through the lens that includes non-linear thinking,
> > non-classical or organic psychology, historical method, "systemics,"
> > dialectics, etc., a
> > return to trying to understand what the "experimental-genetic method"
> is,
> > and to develop my own Vygotskian heuristic that can be used for personal
> > "transformation," which will also inspire/motivate others. It is a drive
> > for
> > constant change that leads to development in all ages, and this is where
> > Vygotsky helps me. It is not so much striving to understand static
> > definitions, but how to use a method for real change. How do we actually
> > understand the process of development as "developing" and the
> potentiality
> > involved? And, all of this leads to thoughts on causality, determinism,
> as
> > well as internalization, etc.
> > I believe the ideas of neoformation, social situation of development,
> > leading activity, ZPD, critical periods (that need to be extended beyond
> > 17years of age, in Moscow there have been discussions on the critical
> ages
> > of 22 and 24) have not been viewed in a unified manner, which must also
> > include word meaning, concept formation, operational-technical and
> > emotional-motivational aspects of activity, etc. Returning to
> > neoformations,
> > I would like to understand that concept more, especially in relation to
> > its
> > transitional role, and the fact that neoformations can be brought to
> life
> > or
> > experimentally created. It also returns to the ideas of "engagement" and
> > "separation" where non-linear paths cross and form connections, such as
> > spontaneous/scientific concepts (and to be honest, I feel that our
> > interpretations are sometimes limiting and rigid.for example, scientific
> > concepts which are often viewed from the abstract to the concrete, or
> > spontaneous concepts from the concrete to
> > the abstract, something I find difficult to truly understand in some
> > Western texts).
> > Nik Veresov has written an article that views neoformations (and the
> > social situation of development) that encourages me regarding a newer
> > vision
> > of integral unity, non-linear thinking, etc. "Leading Activity in
> > Development Psychology." Journal of Russian and East European
> Psychology,
> > 2006, 44/5, pp. 7-25. He returns to a position of Vygotskian ideas
> within
> > a
> > systemic, organic (living, dialectical) approach. He also enters the
> world
> > of "between" and Vygotsky's interaction of the ideal and real forms...I
> > hope
> > we will see more articles on the concept of neoformations. Thanks to
> > David,
> > Elina, Mike, others for stimulating new thoughts on a subject rarely
> > discussed.
> > Warm regards,
> > Dot
> > P.S. Nik also mentions K. Polivanova, and the word Sasha spoke of
> earlier
> > subjectivization. "In her splendid book she cogently demonstrates that
> the
> > content of crises is the transformation of an age-related new formation
> > into
> > a subjective capability-subjectivization." (p. 22)
> >
> >
> > Dorothy (Dot) Robbins
> > Professor of German
> > Russian Orphanage Vyschgorod
> > www.vygotsky-robbins.com
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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Received on Thu Feb 7 08:33 PST 2008