Re: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric

Thanks David, with your help on this snark hunt. If only Sfard or Prusak
were reading xmca and could help us out. Alas.
I am way back on Lave and Wenger, but are they being essentializing in what
we read there and discussed here.
The uses of identity there seem like they have no essential core.

I STILL want to understand what this has to do with the notion of
lichnost/personality.
mike

On Nov 24, 2007 8:26 PM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:

> Sfard and Prusak, in their May 2005 Educational Researcher piece on
> identity as narrative note that Wenger (1998) (along with many others)
> ultimately essentializes identity as being the way we "really" are. Their
> complaint is that analytically this puts identity out of reach, in that it
> is causal to our manifest behavior, but not itself theorized:
>
> "It is our vision of our own or other people's experiences, and not the
> experiences as such, that constitutes identities. Rather than viewing
> identities as entities residing in the world itself, our narrative
> definition presents them as discursive counterparts of one's lived
> experiences. ... Furthermore, while we readily admit that some very real
> experiences prompt people to say that they have a 'sense of identity,' we
> also wish to reverse the causal relation implied by such a saying" (p. 17).
>
> I think they make a good case that identity as narrative becomes more
> tractable analytically through methods of discourse analysis.
>
> David Kirshner
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Adam Mendelson
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 7:24 PM
> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity'
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Identity is mentioned throughout L&W, but never really developed the way
> it
> is in Wenger. I just pulled out my copy of L&W, and here are some relevant
> quotes:
>
> "We conceive of identities as long-term, living relations between persons
> and their place and participation in communities of practice" (53).
>
> "By 'identity' I mean the way a person understands and views himself, and
> is
> viewed by others, a perception of self which is fairly constant" (81 -
> This
> comes from the multi-page quote from Cain in the section on A.A.).
>
> In the section on motivation and identity (starts on 110) they claim that
> motivation is linked to "an increasing sense of identity as a master
> practitioner" (111). Later in that same section they adamantly argue
> against
> a "view of 'self' as object" or schooling practices that view a learner's
> identity as "an explicit object of change" (112).
>
> "We have claimed that the development of identity is central to the
> careers
> of newcomers in communities of practice, and thus fundamental to the
> concept
> of legitimate peripheral participation. This is illustrated most vividly
> by
> the experience of newcomers to A.A." (115).
>
> So identity comes up frequently and is said to be central, but is never
> really explained other than that it is viewed not as an object but as
> long-term relations. I think this is where Wenger picks things up,
> attempting to explain these relations that make up identity.
>
> Adam
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Mike Cole
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 2:14 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric
>
> Hi adam
> You stimulated me to check out wikipedia on wenger identity. Worth
> checking
> out at http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Professional_identity#Lave.2FWenger
>
> I am guessing we need to distinguish lave/wenger from wenger at this
> point.
> So far as I know,
> Jean's focus on a social ontology would make her loath to make statements
> about the subjective side of identity (yes, it is something done to us,
> but
> yes it is something we do in transacting the world).
> But Etienne does not seem to shy away from psychologizing.
>
> Am I mis=remembering here?
> mike
>
> On Nov 24, 2007 1:52 PM, Adam Mendelson <amendelson@berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> > I think identity is fairly central to Lave & Wenger's legitimate
> > peripheral participation. I interpret their's as a model in which
> > learning is a process of becoming a type of person (i.e. a full member
> > in a particular community).
> > Their work shares many of the same premises as language socialization
> > which posits not only that we learn language through being socialized
> > into particular speech communities, but also that we are socialized to
> > the ideologies of those communities through language.
> >
> > Wenger's later "communities of practice" presents a much fuller
> > discussion of identity than was initially developed by L&W. For one,
> > he accounts for membership in multiple communities. Similarly, Eva Lam
> > explores the impact on identity of being simultaneously socialized
> > into multiple speech communities.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 12:21 PM
> > To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric
> >
> >
> >
> > Wow, Boris & Mike:
> >
> > That is truely enlightening. I appreciate the formation of the ideal
> > that has evolved from this discourse. I was floundering at first
> > Mike, regarding your comment on superego, but having read and reread
> > the post from Boris I now concur that personality research is not for
> > the collective but rather for the understanding of cultural influences
> > upon development.
> > Mike, in your opinion does Lave and Wagner's research on legitimate
> > peripheral participation assist in the research pertaining to identity?
> >
> > Thank you Andy for beginning this fabulous thread
> >
> > grateful for the discourse,
> > not dead yet,
> > eric
> >
> >
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > cc: Boris Meshcheryakov <borlogic@orexovo.net>
> > bcc:
> > Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> > "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > 11/23/2007 08:50 AM PST
> > Please respond to mcole <font size=-1></font>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In red below is my attempt at translation of a note from Boris
> > Mescheryakov re identity and personality in LSV. Boris, whose work you
> > can read in the Companion to Vygotsky and elsewhere was kind enough to
> > look up relevant passages from LSV. I probably have not done the
> > translation justice, but most all of this exists in English and others
> > more knowledgeable of Russian can straighten things out.
> >
> > It appears were are dealing with issues that are not usefully reduced
> > to either or....... again.
> > mike
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Boris Meshcheryakov < borlogic@orexovo.net>
> > Date: Nov 23, 2007 12:01 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> > To: Mike Cole <mcole@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> >
> > úÄÒÁ×ÓÔ×ÕÊ, Mike.
> > ðÏ-×ÉÄÉÍÏÍÕ, ÐÒÁ×Ù ÔÅ, ËÔÏ ÓÞÉÔÁÅÔ, ÞÔÏ ÐÒÏÂÌÅÍÁ ÉÄÅÎÔÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ,
> > ÉÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÉ, ÓÁÍÏÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÉÑ (ÓÁÍÏÄÅÔÅÒÍÉÎÁÃÉÉ) ÎÅ ÂÙÌÉ
> > ÓÁÍÏÓÔÏÑÔÅÌØÎÙÍ ÐÒÅÄÍÅÔÏÍ ÒÁÚÍÙÛÌÅÎÉÊ É ÉÓÓÌÅÄÏ×ÁÎÉÊ ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÏÇÏ. íÏÇÕ
> > ÌÉÛØ ÐÒÅÄÌÏÖÉÔØ ÎÅËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÅÇÏ ×ÙÓËÁÚÙ×ÁÎÉÑ Ï ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÉ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ É
> > ÓÁÍÏÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÉ (ÜÔÕ Ó×ÑÚØ ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÉÊ ÞÅÔËÏ ÏÐÉÓÙ×ÁÌ):
> >
> > Apparently, those who believe that the problem of identity,
> > identification, self determination were not independent subjects of
> > thought and investigation by LSV are correct. I can only propos a few
> > of his statements on the development of personality and self
> > consciousness (this connection Vygotsky clearly did describe)
> >
> >
> > ?...ÏÔÌÉÞÉÅ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÏÔ ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ ÍÏÖÅÔ ÂÙÔØ ÌÕÞÛÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ×ÙÒÁÖÅÎÏ
> > ÐÏÌÏÖÅÎÉÅÍ çÅÇÅÌÑ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÊ ÒÁÚÌÉÞÁÌ ×ÅÝÉ × ÓÅÂÅ É ×ÅÝÉ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ. ïÎ
> > ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ, ÞÔÏ ×ÓÅ ×ÅÝÉ ÓÕÔØ ÓÎÁÞÁÌÁ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÎÏ ÎÁ ÜÔÏÍ ÄÅÌÏ ÎÅ
> > ÏÓÔÁÎÁ×ÌÉ×ÁÅÔÓÑ É × ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓÅ ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ×ÅÝØ ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÁÅÔÓÑ × ×ÅÝØ ÄÌÑ
> > ÓÅÂÑ. ôÁË, ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ ÏÎ, ÞÅÌÏ×ÅË × ÓÅÂÅ ÅÓÔØ ÒÅÂÅÎÏË, ÚÁÄÁÞÁ ËÏÔÏÒÏÇÏ
> > ÓÏÓÔÏÉÔ ÎÅ × ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÏÓÔÁ×ÁÔØÓÑ × ÜÔÏÍ ÁÂÓÔÒÁËÔÎÏÍ É ÎÅÒÁÚ×ÉÔÏÍ "×
> > ÓÅÂÅ", Á × ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÓÔÁÔØ ÔÁËÖÅ É ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ÔÅÍ, ÞÅÍ ÏÎ ÐÏËÁ ÅÓÔØ
> > ÌÉÛØ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÉÍÅÎÎÏ ÓÔÁÔØ Ó×ÏÂÏÄÎÙÍ É ÒÁÚÕÍÎÙÍ ÓÕÝÅÓÔ×ÏÍ. ÷ÏÔ ÜÔÏ
> > ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÅÎÉÅ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÉÚ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ × ÓÅÂÅ × ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ ?
> > ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ? É ÓÏÓÔÁ×ÌÑÅÔ ÇÌÁ×ÎÏÅ ÓÏÄÅÒÖÁÎÉÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ËÒÉÚÉÓÁ
> > ÐÅÒÅÈÏÄÎÏÇÏ ×ÏÚÒÁÓÔÁ. üÔÏ ÅÓÔØ ÜÐÏÈÁ ÓÏÚÒÅ×ÁÎÉÑ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ É
> > ÍÉÒÏ×ÏÚÚÒÅÎÉÑ...?
> > (ðÅÄÏÌÏÇÉÑ ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ, óÏÂÒ. ÓÏÞ., Ô. 4, Ó. 199).
> >
> > "the difference between child and adolescent may be best expressed by
> > Hegel's position that distinguished things in themselves and things
> > for oneself. He said that the all things are initially in themselves,
> > but matters do not stop at this point and in the process of
> > development the thing turns into a thing for onself. Thus, he said, a
> > person (man) in himself is a child, whose task is to leave behind that
> > abstract and undeveloped "in himself" and in so doing, in order to
> > become for himself in a way that he is in the meantime only in
> > himself, that is, to become a free and intelligent being. This very
> > transformation of the child into an adult
> > (man) in himself in the adolescent -- a person (man) for himself--
> > constitutes the major content of the entire crisis of this
> > transitional age.
> > It is an epoch of the maturation of personality and world view
> > (Pedology of the Adolescent, Comp Works, v4, p. 199)
> >
> > "ìÉÞÎÏÓÔØ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÉÔÓÑ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ÔÅÍ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎÁ ÅÓÔØ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÞÅÒÅÚ ÔÏ, ÞÔÏ
> > ÏÎÁ ÐÒÅÄßÑ×ÌÑÅÔ ÄÌÑ ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. üÔÏ É ÅÓÔØ ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÌÅÎÉÑ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ"
> > (éÓÔÏÒÉÑ ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ÷ðæ, óÏÂÒ. ÓÏÞ., Ô. 3, Ó. 144). (A) Personality
> > becomes for itself, when it has previously been in itself, through
> > what it manifests through others (History of Dev of HPF, Coll. Works,
> > Vol 3, p. 144)
> >
> > ïÞÅÎØ ×ÁÖÎÏÅ ÄÏÂÁ×ÌÅÎÉÅ ÉÚ "éÓÔÏÒÉÉ ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ÷ðæ": "The following
> > addition from same work is very important:
> >
> > ?äÖ. âÏÌÄÕÉÎ ÓÐÒÁ×ÅÄÌÉ×Ï ÏÔÍÅÔÉÌ, ÞÔÏ ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ Ï "Ñ" ÒÁÚ×É×ÁÅÔÓÑ Õ
> > ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÉÚ ÐÏÎÑÔÉÑ Ï ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. ðÏÎÑÔÉÅ ?ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ? ÅÓÔØ, Ô.Ï.,
> > ÓÏÃÉÁÌØÎÏÅ, ÏÔÒÁÖÅÎÎÏÅ ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ, ÓÔÒÏÑÝÅÅÓÑ ÎÁ ÏÓÎÏ×Å ÔÏÇÏ, ÞÔÏ ÒÅÂÅÎÏË
> > ÐÒÉÍÅÎÑÅÔ ÐÏ ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÀ Ë ÓÁÍÏÍÕ ÓÅÂÅ ÔÅ ÐÒÉÅÍÙ ÐÒÉÓÐÏÓÏÂÌÅÎÉÑ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ
> > ÏÎ ÐÒÉÍÅÎÑÅÔ ÐÏ ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÀ Ë ÄÒÕÇÉÍ. ÷ÏÔ ÐÏÞÅÍÕ ÍÏÖÎÏ ÓËÁÚÁÔØ, ÞÔÏ
> > ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ ÅÓÔØ ÓÏÃÉÁÌØÎÏÅ × ÎÁÓ? (Ô.
> > 3, Ó. 324/ ÖÉÒÎ. ÛÒÉÆÔ ÍÏÊ ? â.í.).
> >
> > James Baldwin correctly noted that the concept of "I" develops in a
> > child from the concept of others. The concept, personality, that is,
> > the social, reflected, concept, is built on the basis of the fact that
> > the child uses in relationship to himself those means of adaptation
> > which he uses in relationship to others. This is why it is possible to
> > say that personality is the social in us. (vol 3, p. 324)
> >
> >
> >
> > éÚ "ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÏÇÏ ÓÌÏ×ÁÒÑ" ÷ÁÒÛÁ×Ù É ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÏÇÏ (1931) From
> > Varshava and Vygotsky (1931) *Psychological Dictionary*:
> >
> > "éÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÑ (æÒÅÊÄ) - ÏÔÏÖÄÅÓÔ×ÌÅÎÉÅ, ÕÐÏÄÏÂÌÅÎÉÅ ÓÅÂÑ ÄÒÕÇÏÊ
> > ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ, ÐÒÉÐÉÓÙ×ÁÎÉÅ ÓÅÂÅ ÐÒÉÚÎÁËÏ× ÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÎÏÇÏ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ.
> > éÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÑ ÉÇÒÁÅÔ ÏÇÒÏÍÎÕÀ ÒÏÌØ × ÓÎÏ×ÉÄÅÎÉÑÈ, × Ô×ÏÒÞÅÓÔ×Å, ×
> > ÍÅÞÔÁÈ. ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÊ ÓÍÙÓÌ é. Ó×ÏÄÉÔÓÑ Ë ÒÁÓÛÉÒÅÎÉÀ ËÒÕÇÁ
> > ÐÅÒÅÖÉ×ÁÎÉÊ, Ë ÏÂÏÇÁÝÅÎÉÀ ×ÎÕÔÒÅÎÎÅÇÏ ÏÐÙÔÁ".
> >
> > Identification (Freud) - the equating, making similar, of oneself to
> > another personality, the adoption by oneself of the characteristics of
> > a specific person. Identification plays a huge role in reminisences,
> > dreams and creativity. The psychological sense of identification comes
> > down to the widening of one's circle of experiences (perezhivania), to
> > the enrichment of innner life.
> >
> > "ìÉÞÎÏÓÔØ - ÔÅÒÍÉÎ, ÏÚÎÁÞÁÀÝÉÊ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Ï É ÉÎÄÉ×ÉÄÕÁÌØÎÏÓÔØ ×ÓÅÈ
> > ÖÉÚÎÅÎÎÙÈ É ÐÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÈ ÐÒÏÑ×ÌÅÎÉÊ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ; ÞÅÌÏ×ÅË, ÓÏÚÎÁÀÝÉÊ
> > ÓÁÍ ÓÅÂÑ ËÁË ÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÎÏÅ ÉÎÄÉ×ÉÄÕÁÌØÎÏÅ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Ï É ÔÏÖÄÅÓÔ×Ï ×Ï ×ÓÅÈ
> > ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓÁÈ ÉÚÍÅÎÅÎÉÑ, ÐÒÏÉÓÈÏÄÑÝÉÈ × ÏÒÇÁÎÉÚÍÅ É ÐÓÉÈÉËÅ, ÅÓÔØ
> > ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ. âÏÌÅÚÎØ ì.
> > ×ÙÒÁÖÁÅÔÓÑ × ÒÁÓÐÁÄÅ ÜÔÏÇÏ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Á"
> >
> > Personality is a term indicating a unity in the indivualenss of all
> > everyday life and psychological manifestation of persons; a person
> > (man) accepting himself as a certain individual unity and entity in
> > all processes of change that take place in the organism and the psyche
> > - this is personality.
> > Disease of personality is expressed in the disintegration of this unity.
> >
> > é ÅÝÅ: ÷ "ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÉ ÉÓËÕÓÓÔ×Á" × ÇÌÁ×Å Ï "çÁÍÌÅÔÅ" ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÉÊ
> > ÁËÃÅÎÔÉÒÕÅÔ ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ "×ÔÏÒÏÇÏ ÒÏÖÄÅÎÉÑ" . ÷ ÒÁÂÏÔÁÈ á.î. ìÅÏÎÔØÅ×Á ÔÏÖÅ
> > ×ÓÔÒÅÞÁÅÔÓÑ ÜÔÏÔ ÔÅÒÍÉÎ × Ó×ÑÚÉ Ó ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÅÍ ÓÁÍÏÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÑ ×
> > ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÏ×ÏÍ ×ÏÚÒÁÓÔÅ. And
> > also:
> > In *Psychology of Art *in the chapter on Hamlet Vygotsky accentuates
> > the concept, "second birth." In the works of AN Leontiev one also
> > encounters this term in connection with the development of
> > selfconsciousness during adolescence.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > ó Õ×ÁÖÅÎÉÅÍ,
> >
> > â.í.
> > mailto:borlogic@orexovo.net<borlogic@orexovo.net>
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
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> >
> >
>
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Received on Sun Nov 25 20:33 PST 2007