Re: [xmca] Re: Boris assists Mike assists Eric

On 24-Nov-07, at 12:52 PM, Tony Whitson wrote:

Identity is one of the most central and prominent themes in Wenger's
work.

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007, Mike Cole wrote:

> I am not sure how our multi-log has helped your understanding,
> Eric, but
glad it was useful to you.

As I understand them, Lave and Wenger espouse a social ontology and I
do not recall them having talked about identity.

I you looked at the index of their book, you would find a lot of
entries, a number of them in bold. I don't want to be picky, but
don't we want to have informed discussions. I knew they were all
about identity, and it took me only 5 seconds to go to the book
shelves, get the book and find the index entry.
:-)
Michael

But they do use the quasi
dimension, peripheral-->central which implies some sort of common set
of social norms and expectations, a.k.a. superego bound up with what
is considered central.

Being peripheral (what might have been refered to at other times as
marginal)
is not all that bad a subject position. Some might even argue that it
provides
a privileged view of the workings of the system that is human life.
mike

On Nov 24, 2007 12:20 PM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:

>
>
> Wow, Boris & Mike:
>
> That is truely enlightening. I appreciate the formation of the
> ideal that
> has evolved from this discourse. I was floundering at first Mike,
> regarding your comment on superego, but having read and reread the
> post
> from Boris I now concur that personality research is not for the
> collective
> but rather for the understanding of cultural influences upon
> development.
> Mike, in your opinion does Lave and Wagner's research on legitimate
> peripheral participation assist in the research pertaining to
> identity?
>
> Thank you Andy for beginning this fabulous thread
>
> grateful for the discourse,
> not dead yet,
> eric
>
>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> cc: Boris Meshcheryakov <borlogic@orexovo.net>
> bcc:
> Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> 11/23/2007 08:50 AM PST
> Please respond to mcole <font size=-1></font>
>
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> In red below is my attempt at translation of a note from Boris
> Mescheryakov
> re identity and personality in LSV. Boris, whose work you can read
> in the
> Companion to Vygotsky and elsewhere
> was kind enough to look up relevant passages from LSV. I probably
> have not
> done the translation justice, but most all of this exists in
> English and
> others more knowledgeable of Russian
> can straighten things out.
>
> It appears were are dealing with issues that are not usefully
> reduced to
> either or....... again.
> mike
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Boris Meshcheryakov < borlogic@orexovo.net>
> Date: Nov 23, 2007 12:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> To: Mike Cole <mcole@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
>
> úÄÒÁ×ÓÔ×ÕÊ, Mike.
> ðÏ-×ÉÄÉÍÏÍÕ, ÐÒÁ×Ù ÔÅ, ËÔÏ ÓÞÉÔÁÅÔ, ÞÔÏ ÐÒÏÂÌÅÍÁ ÉÄÅÎÔÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ,
> ÉÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÉ, ÓÁÍÏÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÉÑ (ÓÁÍÏÄÅÔÅÒÍÉÎÁÃÉÉ) ÎÅ ÂÙÌÉ
> ÓÁÍÏÓÔÏÑÔÅÌØÎÙÍ
> ÐÒÅÄÍÅÔÏÍ ÒÁÚÍÙÛÌÅÎÉÊ É ÉÓÓÌÅÄÏ×ÁÎÉÊ ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÏÇÏ. íÏÇÕ ÌÉÛØ ÐÒÅÄÌÏÖÉÔØ
> ÎÅËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÅÇÏ ×ÙÓËÁÚÙ×ÁÎÉÑ Ï ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÉ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ É ÓÁÍÏÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÉ (ÜÔÕ
> Ó×ÑÚØ
> ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÉÊ ÞÅÔËÏ ÏÐÉÓÙ×ÁÌ):
>
> Apparently, those who believe that the problem of identity,
> identification,
> self determination were not independent subjects of thought and
> investigation by LSV are correct. I can only propos a few of his
> statements
> on the development of personality and self consciousness (this
> connection
> Vygotsky clearly did describe)
>
>
> ?...ÏÔÌÉÞÉÅ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÏÔ ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ ÍÏÖÅÔ ÂÙÔØ ÌÕÞÛÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ×ÙÒÁÖÅÎÏ
> ÐÏÌÏÖÅÎÉÅÍ
> çÅÇÅÌÑ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÊ ÒÁÚÌÉÞÁÌ ×ÅÝÉ × ÓÅÂÅ É ×ÅÝÉ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ. ïÎ ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ,
> ÞÔÏ ×ÓÅ
> ×ÅÝÉ ÓÕÔØ ÓÎÁÞÁÌÁ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÎÏ ÎÁ ÜÔÏÍ ÄÅÌÏ ÎÅ ÏÓÔÁÎÁ×ÌÉ×ÁÅÔÓÑ É ×
> ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓÅ
> ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ×ÅÝØ ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÁÅÔÓÑ × ×ÅÝØ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ. ôÁË, ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ ÏÎ, ÞÅÌÏ×ÅË ×
> ÓÅÂÅ
> ÅÓÔØ ÒÅÂÅÎÏË, ÚÁÄÁÞÁ ËÏÔÏÒÏÇÏ ÓÏÓÔÏÉÔ ÎÅ × ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÏÓÔÁ×ÁÔØÓÑ ×
> ÜÔÏÍ
> ÁÂÓÔÒÁËÔÎÏÍ É ÎÅÒÁÚ×ÉÔÏÍ "× ÓÅÂÅ", Á × ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÓÔÁÔØ ÔÁËÖÅ É ÄÌÑ
> ÓÅÂÑ
> ÔÅÍ, ÞÅÍ ÏÎ ÐÏËÁ ÅÓÔØ ÌÉÛØ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÉÍÅÎÎÏ ÓÔÁÔØ Ó×ÏÂÏÄÎÙÍ É ÒÁÚÕÍÎÙÍ
> ÓÕÝÅÓÔ×ÏÍ. ÷ÏÔ ÜÔÏ ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÅÎÉÅ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÉÚ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ × ÓÅÂÅ ×
> ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ ?
> ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ? É ÓÏÓÔÁ×ÌÑÅÔ ÇÌÁ×ÎÏÅ ÓÏÄÅÒÖÁÎÉÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ËÒÉÚÉÓÁ
> ÐÅÒÅÈÏÄÎÏÇÏ ×ÏÚÒÁÓÔÁ. üÔÏ ÅÓÔØ ÜÐÏÈÁ ÓÏÚÒÅ×ÁÎÉÑ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ É
> ÍÉÒÏ×ÏÚÚÒÅÎÉÑ...?
> (ðÅÄÏÌÏÇÉÑ ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ, óÏÂÒ. ÓÏÞ., Ô. 4, Ó. 199).
>
> "the difference between child and adolescent may be best expressed by
> Hegel's position that distinguished things in themselves and things
> for
> oneself. He said that the all things are initially in themselves, but
> matters do not stop at this point and in the process of development
> the
> thing turns into a thing for onself. Thus, he said, a person (man) in
> himself is a child, whose task is to leave behind that abstract and
> undeveloped "in himself" and in so doing, in order to become for
> himself
> in
> a way that he is in the meantime only in himself, that is, to become a
> free
> and intelligent being. This very transformation of the child into
> an adult
> (man) in himself in the adolescent -- a person (man) for himself--
> constitutes the major content of the entire crisis of this
> transitional
> age.
> It is an epoch of the maturation of personality and world view
> (Pedology
> of
> the Adolescent, Comp Works, v4, p. 199)
>
> "ìÉÞÎÏÓÔØ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÉÔÓÑ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ÔÅÍ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎÁ ÅÓÔØ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÞÅÒÅÚ ÔÏ,
> ÞÔÏ ÏÎÁ
> ÐÒÅÄßÑ×ÌÑÅÔ ÄÌÑ ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. üÔÏ É ÅÓÔØ ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÌÅÎÉÑ
> ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ" (éÓÔÏÒÉÑ
> ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ÷ðæ, óÏÂÒ. ÓÏÞ., Ô. 3, Ó. 144). (A) Personality becomes for
> itself, when it has previously been in itself, through what it
> manifests
> through others (History of Dev of HPF, Coll. Works, Vol 3, p. 144)
>
> ïÞÅÎØ ×ÁÖÎÏÅ ÄÏÂÁ×ÌÅÎÉÅ ÉÚ "éÓÔÏÒÉÉ ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ÷ðæ": "The following
> addition
> from same work is very important:
>
> ?äÖ. âÏÌÄÕÉÎ ÓÐÒÁ×ÅÄÌÉ×Ï ÏÔÍÅÔÉÌ, ÞÔÏ ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ Ï "Ñ" ÒÁÚ×É×ÁÅÔÓÑ Õ
> ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ
> ÉÚ
> ÐÏÎÑÔÉÑ Ï ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. ðÏÎÑÔÉÅ ?ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ? ÅÓÔØ, Ô.Ï., ÓÏÃÉÁÌØÎÏÅ,
> ÏÔÒÁÖÅÎÎÏÅ
> ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ, ÓÔÒÏÑÝÅÅÓÑ ÎÁ ÏÓÎÏ×Å ÔÏÇÏ, ÞÔÏ ÒÅÂÅÎÏË ÐÒÉÍÅÎÑÅÔ ÐÏ
> ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÀ Ë
> ÓÁÍÏÍÕ ÓÅÂÅ ÔÅ ÐÒÉÅÍÙ ÐÒÉÓÐÏÓÏÂÌÅÎÉÑ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÏÎ ÐÒÉÍÅÎÑÅÔ ÐÏ
> ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÀ Ë
> ÄÒÕÇÉÍ. ÷ÏÔ ÐÏÞÅÍÕ ÍÏÖÎÏ ÓËÁÚÁÔØ, ÞÔÏ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ ÅÓÔØ ÓÏÃÉÁÌØÎÏÅ ×
> ÎÁÓ? (Ô.
> 3, Ó. 324/ ÖÉÒÎ. ÛÒÉÆÔ ÍÏÊ ? â.í.).
>
> James Baldwin correctly noted that the concept of "I" develops in a
> child
> from the concept of others. The concept, personality, that is, the
> social,
> reflected, concept, is built on the basis of the fact that the
> child uses
> in
> relationship to himself those means of adaptation which he uses in
> relationship to others. This is why it is possible to say that
> personality
> is the social in us. (vol 3, p. 324)
>
>
>
> éÚ "ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÏÇÏ ÓÌÏ×ÁÒÑ" ÷ÁÒÛÁ×Ù É ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÏÇÏ (1931) From
> Varshava
> and
> Vygotsky (1931) *Psychological Dictionary*:
>
> "éÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÑ (æÒÅÊÄ) - ÏÔÏÖÄÅÓÔ×ÌÅÎÉÅ, ÕÐÏÄÏÂÌÅÎÉÅ ÓÅÂÑ ÄÒÕÇÏÊ
> ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ,
> ÐÒÉÐÉÓÙ×ÁÎÉÅ ÓÅÂÅ ÐÒÉÚÎÁËÏ× ÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÎÏÇÏ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ. éÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÑ
> ÉÇÒÁÅÔ
> ÏÇÒÏÍÎÕÀ ÒÏÌØ × ÓÎÏ×ÉÄÅÎÉÑÈ, × Ô×ÏÒÞÅÓÔ×Å, × ÍÅÞÔÁÈ.
> ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÊ ÓÍÙÓÌ
> é. Ó×ÏÄÉÔÓÑ Ë ÒÁÓÛÉÒÅÎÉÀ ËÒÕÇÁ ÐÅÒÅÖÉ×ÁÎÉÊ, Ë ÏÂÏÇÁÝÅÎÉÀ ×ÎÕÔÒÅÎÎÅÇÏ
> ÏÐÙÔÁ".
>
> Identification (Freud) - the equating, making similar, of oneself to
> another
> personality, the adoption by oneself of the characteristics of a
> specific
> person. Identification plays a huge role in reminisences, dreams and
> creativity. The psychological sense of identification comes down to
> the
> widening of one's circle of experiences (perezhivania), to the
> enrichment
> of
> innner life.
>
> "ìÉÞÎÏÓÔØ - ÔÅÒÍÉÎ, ÏÚÎÁÞÁÀÝÉÊ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Ï É ÉÎÄÉ×ÉÄÕÁÌØÎÏÓÔØ ×ÓÅÈ
> ÖÉÚÎÅÎÎÙÈ
> É
> ÐÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÈ ÐÒÏÑ×ÌÅÎÉÊ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ; ÞÅÌÏ×ÅË, ÓÏÚÎÁÀÝÉÊ ÓÁÍ ÓÅÂÑ ËÁË
> ÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÎÏÅ ÉÎÄÉ×ÉÄÕÁÌØÎÏÅ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Ï É ÔÏÖÄÅÓÔ×Ï ×Ï ×ÓÅÈ ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓÁÈ
> ÉÚÍÅÎÅÎÉÑ, ÐÒÏÉÓÈÏÄÑÝÉÈ × ÏÒÇÁÎÉÚÍÅ É ÐÓÉÈÉËÅ, ÅÓÔØ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ.
> âÏÌÅÚÎØ ì.
> ×ÙÒÁÖÁÅÔÓÑ × ÒÁÓÐÁÄÅ ÜÔÏÇÏ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Á"
>
> Personality is a term indicating a unity in the indivualenss of all
> everyday
> life and psychological manifestation of persons; a person (man)
> accepting
> himself as a certain individual unity and entity in all processes of
> change
> that take place in the organism and the psyche - this is personality.
> Disease of personality is expressed in the disintegration of this
> unity.
>
> é ÅÝÅ: ÷ "ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÉ ÉÓËÕÓÓÔ×Á" × ÇÌÁ×Å Ï "çÁÍÌÅÔÅ" ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÉÊ
> ÁËÃÅÎÔÉÒÕÅÔ
> ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ "×ÔÏÒÏÇÏ ÒÏÖÄÅÎÉÑ" . ÷ ÒÁÂÏÔÁÈ á.î. ìÅÏÎÔØÅ×Á ÔÏÖÅ ×ÓÔÒÅÞÁÅÔÓÑ
> ÜÔÏÔ
> ÔÅÒÍÉÎ × Ó×ÑÚÉ Ó ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÅÍ ÓÁÍÏÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÑ × ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÏ×ÏÍ ×ÏÚÒÁÓÔÅ. And
> also:
> In *Psychology of Art *in the chapter on Hamlet Vygotsky
> accentuates the
> concept, "second birth." In the works of AN Leontiev one also
> encounters
> this term in connection with the development of selfconsciousness
> during
> adolescence.
>
>
> --
>
> ó Õ×ÁÖÅÎÉÅÍ,
>
> â.í.
> mailto:borlogic@orexovo.net<borlogic@orexovo.net>
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>
>
>
>
>

Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK DE 19716

twhitson@udel.edu
_______________________________

"those who fail to reread
  are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
                   -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
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Received on Sat Nov 24 17:25 PST 2007