RE: [xmca] Streamed Discussion of Development in CHAT theory

From: Emily Duvall <emily who-is-at>
Date: Mon Nov 19 2007 - 09:33:27 PST

Thanks Mike,
Sounds like I missed the sarcasm in the post, by and large... :-)
Maybe I need a different font/ additional mediation?
Or maybe I ought to write and wait before hitting send!
~ Em

-----Original Message-----
From: []
On Behalf Of Mike Cole
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:32 AM
To: David Kellogg
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Streamed Discussion of Development in CHAT theory

Emily-- I thought the point of David's comment about one on one kinds of
zopeds was that they were insufficient, not that he was advocating such

It is Adrian Cussins who uses the footpath metaphor and I thought it
problematic for some of the same reasons expressed in this thread.

No agency? No Burkian Pentad?
Not even a *secret* agent?
what replaces such exciting stuff?
ps-- no idea about the problem with reaching the streamed discussion,
Checking on it.

On Nov 18, 2007 8:11 PM, David Kellogg <> wrote:

> You didn't miss much, Mike! Paul attacked the use of the word
> and nobody was willing to defend it.
> Let's try a new direction instead. On Saturday, as it happens, I went
> hear Professor Bachman, who signed the rejection letter you got for
the AERA
> mini-course. He's an assessment wallah in language teaching, and he
gave one
> of these airport talks that can be given to anyone and no one on any
day of
> the week in any city on earth (a pity, because we just had a very high
> stakes college entrance exam here in Korea, always accompanied by at
> one suicide).
> In the discussion, I tried to extend his idea of "generalizeability"
> is, the idea that test results are predictive in some way of behavior
> outside of the test taking) to the FUTURE--dynamic assessment, of
> Professor Bachman couldn't see that there was any problem there at
> because the ability to learn is, as we all know, a form of aptitude,
> aptitude is simply another construct which can be sampled and modeled
> statistical means.
> On the way home it occurred to me that it is in principle impossible
for a
> test to predict how test-taking behavior can POTENTIALLY (as opposed
> actually) change, even if we take (as dynamic assessment usually does)
> severely truncated view of what a ZPD involves (one learner plus one
> able peer or one learner plus one mediational means). It's in
principle not
> possible to use the zone of proximal development to predict how the
zone of
> proximal development itself will develop.
> I think that there are some disadvantages to the way in which
> Engestrom talked about the ZPD (in particular, the only reference to
> internalization seems to be the ability to move around independent of
> starting point, which is something that is possible without
> e.g. using a map). But I think his "footprints in the forest" image
> catches this limitation extremely well. It is possible to use extant
> footprints to predict future footprints, but it is not possible to use
> footprints to predict future trails.
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
> ------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your
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Received on Mon Nov 19 09:37 PST 2007

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