Re: [xmca] The Evolution of CHAT

Thanks Andy. No need to repeat what is on your website, all we have to do is
bookmark it!!
mike

On 9/13/07, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi H&P ( nice pairing of initials to print by)--
>
> I was kind of thinking of Steve Gould-ish pictures too, but worrying about
> the issues that Paul raises.
> I love the idea of plastering whatever the representation is with
> xmca/xlchc notes, but also figured we
> would have references to printed article and where possible, links to
> those sources.
>
> We have a librarian who is being very helpful in thinking about this, but
> I think Cathrene should be controlling the pace
> while the rest of us feed materials into some kind of retrievable-from
> structure.
>
> Can't think beyond that. Something not too big, not too little, not to
> structured master narrative not too disjointed to make sense of, something
> kind of
> half baked but potentially nourishing with the input of a little energy.
>
> You know, something easy.
> :-)
> mike
> On 9/13/07, Paul Dillon < phd_crit_think@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > It occurred to me that this process of producing a history of CHAT
> > could be approached as a tree shaped history beginning in LSV of which CHAT
> > would be one branch, or as a tree beginning with CHAT, a current point on
> > the river with many tributaries of which LSV would be one of the most
> > important. In either event it does seem to risk reification and future use
> > as dogma. Perhaps a cross-referenced web of connections (a hyper-text), a
> > multi-dimensional web of connections of different intensities and strengths
> > between ideas and scholars (including their institutional connections) might
> > make a better representation. Like a wiki it wouldn't risk dogmatic
> > authority or the creation of reifying categories.
> >
> > Paul Dillon
> >
> >
> >
> > "Worthen, Helena Harlow" <hworthen@ad.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > Mike, these NOT yes or no answer questions! :)
> >
> > What I was picturing was more like the construction of a tree-shaped
> > history, with its roots in the 1920's with LSV and its branches reaching
> > into the present, and its surface made of a jigsaw of people's memories of
> > what happened when. Not readings, but contributions to xmca. Some are in the
> > archives already.
> >
> > For example, the kind of things Dot Robbins was actually present for.
> >
> > Your own experience in the 1960's.
> >
> > The fact that, in the 1990's, Mohamed felt it was important to pull
> > together this bibliography that demonstrated that there were Vygotsky
> > studies taking place in countries and languages that had very little
> > cross-communication.
> >
> > My little note about Bauer and Bruner which was meant to show that in
> > the 1940's and 1950's, Vygotsky in the US was a shadow figure who belonged
> > to the enemy, which still lingers in questions about whether he was a
> > Marxist or not.
> >
> > The questions you list open the door to discussions that could go back
> > and forth for a long time. I'm trying to stick with Cathrene's request, from
> > down at the bottom of this message. She wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone:
> > Tony's eloquent characterization of "behaviorist hegemony giving way to
> > cognitivist hegemony, which in turn is being challenged by a turn to the
> > broader perspective of social ontology" is well put. How CHAT is being
> > presented to the rugged individualists (albeit mythological entities) in
> > our teacher ed programs is of interest to me as well. It would further
> > be helpful for CHAT neophytes like myself to hear how those of you who have
> > shaped CHAT view how the domain has genetically evolved and, in some cases,
> > splintered ( i.e. the differences between sociocultural theory vs.
> > activity theory).
> >
> > We could find out "how the domain has genetically evolved" if the wise
> > ones on this list would tell us what they saw happening, and when. Or, if
> > the wise ones are to busy, someone (?) could select out from the archives
> > some of the more remarkable "I was there when..." stories.
> >
> > Does anyone know where Eva Ekblad is?
> >
> > Helena
> >
> >
> >
> > Helena Worthen, Clinical Associate Professor
> > Labor Education Program, Institute of Labor & Industrial Relations
> > University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
> > 504 E. Armory, Room 227
> > Champaign, IL 61821
> > Phone: 217-244-4095
> > hworthen@uiuc.edu
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Mike Cole
> > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:15 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] The Evolution of CHAT
> >
> > Do you think that broadening the project to include, for example, all
> > the
> > articles that have ever been written about or by Vygotsky would be the
> > way
> > to go, Helena? I was thinking
> > more of people's concerns with questions like:
> >
> > Did Vygotsky really consider activity as a basic category or was he a
> > semiotician at heart?
> > Did Vygotsky really get all his ideas from the French or Shpet in
> > Russia,
> > or........??
> > Did Leontiev elaborate or distort LSV's ideas?
> > Was Vygotksy a Marxist? Always, never, only when forced to act like one?
> > Do Americans routinely mis-interpret both LSV and activity theory in
> > general
> > and in that connection create false histories?
> >
> > I doubt if anyone on xmca thinks there is one right answer to be found
> > in
> > THE real history
> > of this real of ideas. Rather, I was under the impression that there is
> > a
> > lot of interest in this and many allied questions that it might be able
> > to
> > provide materials relevant to in a systematic manner. Seems like there
> > are
> > some cool bibliographic resources to be
> > had, cheap, at some institutions, UCSD turning out to be one of them
> > (not
> > Ithica college
> > however).
> >
> > In this light, I assume that some subset of the articles in Mohammed's
> > bibliography would
> > be relevant, many would not. But that is only *my* take on what the
> > discussion was pointing toward. And even that cut-down version seems
> > pretty
> > ambitious!!
> > mike
> > On 9/13/07, Worthen, Helena Harlow wrote:
> > >
> > > Andrew, can you say more about the teacher who "abandons the alphabet
> > and
> > > begins instead with a large and sustained focus on each child's name,"
> > and
> > > does this following a training provided by the ministry of education?
> > >
> > > Helena Worthen, Clinical Associate Professor
> > > Labor Education Program, Institute of Labor & Industrial Relations
> > > University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
> > > 504 E. Armory, Room 227
> > > Champaign, IL 61821
> > > Phone: 217-244-4095
> > > hworthen@uiuc.edu
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Andrew Coppens
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 2:10 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] The Evolution of CHAT
> > >
> > > Hi Ana Paula,
> > >
> > > I would be very interested to hear more about how you
> > > and your colleagues carry this out, especially in
> > > terms of language learning. Well, come to think of it
> > > I'm really interested in the whole thing!
> > >
> > > I currently work with local teachers in environmental
> > > education and English classes in rural public schools
> > > in Nicaragua, and also teach English with a group of
> > > adolescents in the community where I live (and many
> > > colleagues of mine in other parts of the country do
> > > similar things). In these small communities the fact
> > > that school curricula is so often removed from social
> > > and community activity is (for me, being educated in
> > > large schools in the U.S.) held in striking relief
> > > because, for the most part, all students live very
> > > close to each other and have long histories with thier
> > > communities often spanning generations. It would be my
> > > guess that these schools might especially benefit from
> > > your developments, being able to teach not only in the
> > > context of social activities generally common to 5th
> > > grade boys, for example, but also to 5th grade boys
> > > in THAT town.
> > >
> > > In some ways this connects with my experience in
> > > another sense as well. The first grade teacher in one
> > > of the schools I work with has shared with me an
> > > approach to teaching reading and writing that she has
> > > recently been implementing, based on training given
> > > from the national ministry of education. It mostly
> > > abandons the alphabet and begins instead with a large
> > > and sustained focus on each child's name, then the
> > > names of thier friends, and so on. She has had great
> > > success.
> > >
> > > Thank you for offering to share your work. I'm excited
> > > to learn more.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Mike Cole wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Ana Paula--
> > > >
> > > > *I* want to know more!! Please!
> > > > mike
> > > > PS- I am (incidentally?) interested in your
> > > > statement that " every teenager
> > > > suffers with this process- [of first love]; What
> > > > does the word,
> > > > "suffer" mean:? I am a...... sort of...... well.....
> > > > not a lot more than
> > > > middle age (??) man and I am married to my 15 year
> > > > old first love. You think
> > > > teenagers know about suffering? Ask my wife!!
> > > > :-)
> > > >
> > > > (and, really write more)
> > > >
> > > > On 9/6/07, Ana Paula B. R. Cortez
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear colleagues,
> > > > > I have to be honest and tell you that I haven't
> > > > read the whole
> > > > > discussion and I'm not sure if what I'll write has
> > > > to do with you've been
> > > > > writing about, but I felt I could contribute with
> > > > it.
> > > > > I work at a bilingual school in the city of São
> > > > Paulo, Brazil, and since
> > > > > 2005 we've been teaching English and the subjects
> > > > in English (science, math
> > > > > and social studies) with the help of CHAT.
> > > > Basically (and very
> > > > > simplistically), we teach contents inside social
> > > > activities. Let me give you
> > > > > an example: think about the subject, an age group
> > > > and their grade, let's say
> > > > > language, year 6; then, the kinds of social
> > > > activities in which students
> > > > > would be involved in their real lives, not school
> > > > context (I like the one I
> > > > > call "my first love" - every teenager suffers with
> > > > this process); finally,
> > > > > what the actions in this activity were, the
> > > > subjects involved (all the
> > > > > elements of an activity and their roles: what the
> > > > teacher would say and do
> > > > > to support and help adolescents in the process;
> > > > the students' roles as well
> > > > > - sharing feelings and experiences with friends,
> > > > family, contacting magazine
> > > > > "agony aunts" and everything else that it takes),
> > > > the language (linguistic
> > > > > devices, genres,
> > > > > whatever) needed, so on an so forth. Then, we
> > > > organise the whole
> > > > > curriculum based on this process, that's it.
> > > > > I know I might not have been that clear, but it
> > > > took me my whole master
> > > > > course and my dissertation to develop it, and it's
> > > > been very successful (I
> > > > > presented it in Russia and Finland last year). In
> > > > case you feel like knowing
> > > > > it, I can provide more details. I've been thinking
> > > > about writing a book to
> > > > > share this project and the experience, it might
> > > > help others too. Would
> > > > > anybody like to help me?
> > > > > Ana
> > > > >
> > > > > "Worthen, Helena Harlow"
> > > > escreveu:
> > > > > I second the request from Cathrene Connery and
> > > > Donald James Cunningham
> > > > > to hear from some who have tried how they (you)
> > > > present CHAT. The
> > > > > historical perspective (behaviorism, cognitive
> > > > science, sociocultural
> > > > > perspectives) seems like a necessary one. But what
> > > > were the problems at
> > > > > each point that pushed things onward?
> > > > >
> > > > > Helena
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Helena Worthen
> > > > > Clinical Associate Professor
> > > > > Labor Education Program
> > > > > Institute of Labor & Industrial Relations
> > > > > 504 E. Armory, Room 227
> > > > > Champaign, IL 61821
> > > > > Phone: 217-244-4095
> > > > > hworthen@uiuc.edu
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > [mailto: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > > > On Behalf Of Cathrene Connery
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:59 PM
> > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > Subject: [xmca] The Evolution of CHAT
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony Whitson wrote:
> > > > > > Don,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry for the delay in responding to this -- but
> > > > I think it's a useful
> > > > >
> > > > > > question for discussion in this group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I want to respond quickly on another point
> > > > before getting to your main
> > > > >
> > > > > > question about teaching CHAT.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > First, you write:
> > > > > >> I've taught the usual suspects (behaviorism,
> > > > > >> Bandura, Piaget, cognitive information
> > > > processing) for years and have
> > > > > a
> > > > > >> pretty good idea about them but would
> > > > appreciate some help on CHAT.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Where I am, students have learned a story about
> > > > how once upon a time
> > > > > > the world was ruled by the behaviorists, but
> > > > they've been vanquished
> > > > > > by the (scientifically, pedagogically,
> > > > politically, and morally)
> > > > > > superior forces of Cognitive Science. They think
> > > > that's where the
> > > > > > story ends (as in the "End of History"
> > > > celebrated since Daniel Bell in
> > > > >
> > > > > > the early 60's, where history completes itself
> > > > with the universal
> > > > > > triumph of capitalism).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it's important for students to learn
> > > > about what's happening
> > > > > > "beyond cognitivism." For me, this is not just a
> > > > matter of theory or
> > > > > > intellectual politics: My students just won't
> > > > understand anything I'm
> > > > > > saying or doing unless they understand that I'm
> > > > addressing an ontology
> > > > >
> > > > > > in which cognition cannot be understood except
> > > > as it is embedded in
> > > > > > the broader (not only cognitive) projects and
> > > > processes of being and
> > > > > > becoming. CHAT takes this stance against
> > > > reductive cognitivism, and
> > > > > > CHAT cannot be understood (IMHO) without
> > > > recognizing this. I think
> > > > > > Wenger & the Communities of Practice literature
> > > > perhaps makes this
> > > > > > point more directly and accessibly, although
> > > > details have not been
> > > > > > theorized as extensively as in CHAT. Curriculum
> > > > theory -- my own home
> > > > > > turf -- has always approached education as a
> > > > matter of ontology, not
> > > > > > merely cognition (i.e., not just Knowing, but
> > > > Being and Becoming).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, I would want to tell the story of
> > > > behaviorist hegemony giving way
> > > > > > to cognitivist hegemony, which in turn is being
> > > > challenged by a turn
> > > > > > to the broader perspective of social ontology.
> > > > This is not to say that
> > > > >
> > > > > > the reductivist ideology of cognitivISM is
> > > > replaced by an ideology of
> > > > > > postcognitivISM (see my post at
> > > > http://postcog.net ); Nor is it a call
> > > > >
> > > > > > for hegemonic "postcognitivism" in place of
> > > > hegemonic cognitivism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One good source is Lave, Jean. "Teaching, as
> > > > Learning, in Practice."
> > > > > > Mind, Culture, and Activity 3, no. 3 (1996):
> > > > 149-64.
> > > > > > I think this particular point might come through
> > > > more strongly in
> > > > > > Lave, Jean. "Learning as Participation in
> > > > Communities of Practice."
> > > > > > Paper presented at the American Educational
> > > > Research Association, San
> > > > > > Francisco 1992.
> > > > > > (This paper is now linked from
> > > > http://postcog.net/#Lave . This is the
> > > > > > paper Jean presented in the symposium that David
> > > > Kirshner and I
> > > > > > organized, which grew into our book _Situated
> > > > Cognition_, although a
> > > > > > different piece was used as her chapter in the
> > > > book. The MCA article
> > > > > > includes aspects of the AERA paper, although its
> > > > scope is broader and
> > > > > > the social ontology argument may be less central
> > > > to the complete
> > > > > > published article.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With regard to your main question, you write:
> > > > > >> [I] was wondering if any of you would be
> > > > > >> willing to share with me (and other XMCAers)
> > > > how you present CHAT. I
> > > > > >> mean, I don't think undergrads are going to be
> > > > too interested in the
> > > > > >> distinction between action and activity or
> > > > working out the concept of
> > > > > >> "object". Or am I wrong?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This could be a very interesting discussion for
> > > > XMCA.
> > > > > > As you suggest, for an undergrad Ed Psych class,
> > > > it might be best to
> > > > > > streamline CHAT a bit. However, I don't think
> > > > the differentiation
> > > > > > among the three levels of activity, action, and
> > > > operations is
> > > > > > dispensable. I think it's necessary to see
> > > > activities and activity
> > > > > > systems emerging on a social/cultural level
> > > > beyond consciously
> > > > > > goal-oriented action, and to see the role of
> > > > routinized operational
> > > > > > activity that does not require conscious
> > > > attention.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would be helpful to develop introductory
> > > > approaches for this
> > > > > > audience. Starting points could include the
> > > > resources at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > http://www.edu.helsinki.fi/activity/pages/chatanddwr/
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > Roth, Wolff-Michael, and Yew-Jin Lee.
> > > > ""Vygotsky's Neglected Legacy":
> > > > > > Cultural-Historical Activity Theory." Review of
> > > > Educational Research
> > > > > > 77, no. 2 (2007): 186-232.
> > > > > > as well as
> > > > > > pp. 27-47 in Spinuzzi, Clay. Tracing Genres
> > > > through Organizations: A
> > > > > > Sociocultural Approach to Information Design.
> > > > Cambridge, Mass.: MIT
> > > > > > Press, 2003.
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > pp. 29-72 ("Activity Theory in a Nutshell") in
> > > > Kaptelinin, Victor, and
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bonnie A. Nardi. Acting with Technology:
> > > > Activity Theory and
> > > > > > Interaction Design. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press,
> > > > 2006.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Cunningham, Donald James
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> And in a week or so, I will begin teaching an
> > > > undergraduate class in
> > > > > >> "Educational Psychology" for future teachers.
> > > > It has been a few years
> > > > > >> since I taught such a class and was wondering
> > > > if any of you would be
> > > > > >> willing to share with me (and other XMCAers)
> > > > how you present CHAT. I
> > > > > >> mean, I don't think undergrads are going to be
> > > > too interested in the
> > > > > >> distinction between action and activity or
> > > > working out the concept of
> > > > > >> "object". Or am I wrong? I've taught the usual
> > > > suspects (behaviorism,
> > > > > >> Bandura, Piaget, cognitive information
> > > > processing) for years and have
> > > > > a
> > > > > >> pretty good idea about them but would
> > > > appreciate some help on CHAT.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Don Cunningham
> > > > > >> Indiana University
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Ancora Imparo!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > > > >> On Behalf Of Mike Cole
> > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:13 PM
> > > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >> Subject: [xmca] mediational theories of mind:
> > > > Suggestions requested
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Dear Xmca-ites---
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Toward the end of the month I will begin
> > > > teaching a grad course on
> > > > > >> mediational theories of mind.
> > > > > >> I would love suggestions for interesting
> > > > readings.
> > > > > >> We will be looking in a sort of "mcLuhanesque"
> > > > way at the affordances
> > > > > of
> > > > > >> different kinds of mediators
> > > > > >> in human action/activity/mind.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> So, language and thought
> > > > > >> writing
> > > > > >> film
> > > > > >> music
> > > > > >> tv
> > > > > >> rituals
> > > > > >> games
> > > > > >> .........
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Starting with early 20th century writers of
> > > > general familiarity to
> > > > > >> members
> > > > > >> of this list, I have been thinking about
> > > > including
> > > > > >> such works as Cszikentmihalyi, "meaning of
> > > > things," Turkle's recent
> > > > > >> "evocative objects," and perhaps something on
> > > > mediated
> > > > > >> behavior in large groups such as "the wisdom of
> > > > crowds."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Any and all suggestions warmly welcomed. So
> > > > much going on its hard to
> > > > > >> even
> > > > > >> think about how to begin to think about this
> > > > > >> upcoming fall!!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> mike
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> xmca mailing list
> > > > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> xmca mailing list
> > > > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tony Whitson
> > > > > > UD School of Education
> > > > > > NEWARK DE 19716
> > > > > >
> > > > > > twhitson@udel.edu
> > > > > > _______________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "those who fail to reread
> > > > > > are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
> > > > > > -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > Hi everyone:
> > > > > Tony's eloquent characterization of "behaviorist
> > > > hegemony giving way to
> > > > > cognitivist hegemony, which in turn is being
> > > > challenged by a turn to the
> > > > >
> > > > > broader perspective of social ontology" is well
> > > > put. How CHAT is being
> > > > > presented to the rugged individualists (albeit
> > > > mythological entities) in
> > > > >
> > > > > our teacher ed programs is of interest to me as
> > > > well. It would further
> > > > > be helpful for CHAT neophytes like myself to hear
> > > > how those of you who
> > > > > have shaped CHAT view how the domain has
> > > > genetically evolved and, in
> > > > > some cases, splintered (i.e. the differences
> > > > between sociocultural
> > > > > theory vs. activity theory). Thanks for engaging
> > > > in an interesting
> > > > > discussion. I realize this topic has already been
> > > > hashed out on-line
> > > > > previously, but it was Lev that said we only truly
> > > > know something when
> > > > > we view it in motion.
> > > > > Cathrene
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dr. M. Cathrene Connery
> > > > > Assistant Professor of Education
> > > > > 607.274.7382
> > > > > Ithaca College
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > > > Flickr agora em português. Você clica, todo
> > > > mundo vê. Saiba mais.
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> > === message truncated ===
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> > ---------------------------------
> > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
> > knows.
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Received on Thu Sep 13 17:08 PDT 2007