RE: [xmca] signs and tools-for-thought: an analogy?

We all seem to agree, then, and Mike's comment reminds me of an old joke:

"This guy's walking down the street when he falls in a hole. The walls are
so steep he can't get out.
"A doctor passes by and the guy shouts up, 'Hey you. Can you help me out?'
The doctor writes a prescription, throws it down in the hole and moves on.
"Then a priest comes along and the guy shouts up, 'Father, I'm down in this
hole can you help me out?' The priest writes out a prayer, throws it down in
the hole and moves on
"Then a friend walks by, 'Hey, Joe, it's me can you help me out?' And the
friend jumps in the hole. Our guy says, 'Are you stupid? Now we're both down
here.' The friend says, 'Yeah, but I've been down here before and I know the
way out.'"

I guess we could be in a hole with worse company than Peirce and Vygotsky
anyway....

>-----Original Message-----
>From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
>Behalf Of Mike Cole
>Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:44 PM
>To: Andy Blunden
>Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>Subject: Re: [xmca] signs and tools-for-thought: an analogy?
>
>Well, if we agree we are probably dead wrong, Andy. But its nice to have
>company (albeit
>also artifacts! :-)
>mike.
>
>
>On 9/10/07, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>
>> Well I agree with that Mike. In my comment on tools-for-thought, I was
>> saying that the concept of semiosis was a tool for thought. Obviously,
for
>> Peirce as for Vygotsky, tool and sign are the same thing and both are
>> material things albeit artefacts.
>> Andy
>> At 09:02 AM 10/09/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>> >I don't know enough about physics except to be a great person to
>> >demonstrate the
>> >errors of naive physics folks who are asked to think about where a rock
>> >will drop
>> >from a moving airplane or the forces operating on a spring attached to a
>> >wall and pulled
>> >by an aging academic.
>> >
>> >But vis a vis mediated human activity, my intuitive take on Vygotsky's
>> >ideas is that human
>> >thought, in so far as it incorporates the products of prior human
>> actions,
>> >has a unique structure
>> >that gives rise to higher psychological functions, an emergent outcome
in
>> >which tool and non-tool
>> >contributions are both essential and irreducible to "thought" and
"tool."
>> >This may be more Pierce than somebody else, or simply mike cole's
>> >confusion.
>> >mike
>> >
>> >On 9/10/07, David Williamson Shaffer <dws@education.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Analogies are always dangerous, of course. (Wasn't it Kundera who
said
>> to
>> > > be
>> > > careful of metaphors, because a single metaphor can give birth to
>> love?)
>> > >
>> > > In any event, in technical terms heat is not Brownian motion, but
>> > > temperature is. This from wikipedia, for example:
>> > >
>> > > "The temperature of a system is defined as simply the average energy
>> of
>> > > microscopic motions of a single particle in the system per degree of
>> > > freedom."
>> > >
>> > > (For those wondering, heat is the transfer of this energy from one
>> body to
>> > > another.)
>> > >
>> > > Tony is clearly more of a Peirce expert than I, but the idea of a
>> > > toolforthought is to suggest that thinking is, as he suggests, a tool
>> > > activity--where signs and physical objects are all tools, and
>> therefore
>> > > also
>> > > thoughts, and thinking is an emergent property of the inter-activity
>> of
>> > > toolforthoughts. That is, as Katie and I suggest, toolforthoughts are
>> the
>> > > cognitive instantiation of Latour's mutually mediating mediators.
>> > >
>> > > Which also suggests at least part of why the idea is so unsettling.
It
>> is
>> > > awkward to conceive of our own experience as the product of a kind of
>> > > socio-cultural/intellectual Brownian motion.
>> > >
>> > > I hope perhaps Jay Lemke and others who are more versed in actually
>> > > physics
>> > > than I will weigh in too. Meanwhile, there is a little flash
animation
>> of
>> > > Brownian motion for those who think visually at
>> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature
>> > >
>> > > David
>> > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> > > > On Behalf Of Tony Whitson
>> > > > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 10:25 PM
>> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > Subject: [xmca] signs and tools-for-thought: an analogy?
>> > > >
>> > > > In an earlier post, I repeated Peirce's view that thought is
>> > > > sign-activity, and asked, if signs are merely tools for thought,
>> then
>> > > what
>> > > > do we take thought, itself, to be?
>> > > >
>> > > > Reflecting on that, it occurs to me that it might be helpful to
>> suggest
>> > > > this as an analogy:
>> > > >
>> > > > To say that signs are tools for thought, is rather like saying that
>> > > > molecules are tools for heat.
>> > > >
>> > > > To think of thought AS sign activity, is it helpful, as a lame
>> analogy,
>> > > to
>> > > > think of heat AS Brownian motion?
>> > > >
>> > > > Tony Whitson
>> > > > UD School of Education
>> > > > NEWARK DE 19716
>> > > >
>> > > > twhitson@udel.edu
>> > > > _______________________________
>> > > >
>> > > > "those who fail to reread
>> > > > are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
>> > > > -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > xmca mailing list
>> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > xmca mailing list
>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >xmca mailing list
>> >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435, AIM
>> identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>xmca mailing list
>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Received on Mon Sep 10 20:23 PDT 2007