Re: [xmca] Humans and nature

Here are the words Vygtotsky used to describe his take on the humans
over nature question in the essay The Socialist Alteration of Man ...

"The second source from which springs the alteration of man resides in
fact that at the same time as the old fetters disappear, an enormous
positive potential present in large scale industry, the ever growing
power of humans over nature, will be liberated and become operative."

My interpretation of this is that Vygotsky believed that large scale
industry increases humankind's power (the term 'triumph' seems odd,
not a term I would personally would use) over nature, and this ever
growing potential is a positive thing. I have little doubt that LSV
would be horrified to see how modern industry as we know it has also
been laying the basis for destroying more and more of the planet as a
viable habitat for humans and many other species. I also have little
doubt that like many socialists of his time, especially those
supportive of the Russian revolution, Vygotsky would have been quick
to point out that industry organized under socialism is a totally
different entity from industry organized under capitalism. But that
only begs the question.

In Crisis, Vygotsky refers to Marx's core idea of social revolution:
that the potential for revolution becomes ripe when new forces of
production outgrow and can no longer be organized by the old social
system and its old relations of production. Some would argue that
this also applies to the environment and nature, which are the
ultimate sources of production. Capitalism, according to this
thinking, is less and less able to rationally organize an integrated
system of the forces and sources of production, and in fact, is
becoming more and more of an obstacle. The ever growing capacities of
modern technology, the steady growth of world population, and the ever-
growing expectations about the right to and hope for health, peace and
prosperity that continue to sweep across the human race, are causing
people everywhere to ask what kind of a social system *could*
integrate human society and nature in a way that, to use Stephen Jay
Gould's excellent term, fulfills humankind's role as "steward" of the
planet earth and all its species, while also creating a just and
plentiful world for humanity.

Mike's point that humans trying to "triumph" "over" nature is a
problem, is well taken. And perhaps Vygotsky's term "power" over
nature is a little old-fashioned, now that we know so much more about
how the forces and sources of production must work together
ecologically and sustainably. Human beings are certainly *in* and
*of* nature, and this must be our starting point. But because we are
the species of activity, we also act *upon* nature, and there is the
rub.

- Steve

PS Thanks all for the tip on the Foster book, I will look for it.

On Mar 19, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Martin Packer wrote:

> I second this recommendation: it's an excellent book
>
> Martin
>
> On 3/19/08 11:04 AM, "C Barker" <C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Mike, Steve, Peter (hullo Peter!)
>>
>> I think Mike is right. So, I think, would good old Karl Marx.
>> There's a very
>> good
>> discussion in Marx's Ecology: Materialism and Nature, by John
>> Bellamy Foster,
>> Monthly
>> Review Pres 2000
>>
>> Colin Barker
>>
>> Steve & Peter. In 2007 you have no difficulty with the idea of "Man's
>> triumph *OVER *nature?? I have other concerns with other points,
>> but this
>> one strikes me as really dangerous. Human beings are in and of
>> nature. We
>> are consuming and "triumphing" ourselves out of existence.
>>
>> Check it out.
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:35 AM, Peter HICK <P.Hick@mmu.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for that Steve,
>>> an excellent contribution, very interesting
>>> Pete Hick (new member, Manchester UK)
>>
>> Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should
>> read the
>> Manchester
>> Metropolitan University's email disclaimer available on its website
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Received on Wed Mar 19 17:06 PDT 2008