Re: [xmca] more on Vygotsky's relevance

Steve & Peter. In 2007 you have no difficulty with the idea of "Man's
triumph *OVER *nature?? I have other concerns with other points, but this
one strikes me as really dangerous. Human beings are in and of nature. We
are consuming and "triumphing" ourselves out of existence.

Check it out.

mike

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:35 AM, Peter HICK <P.Hick@mmu.ac.uk> wrote:

> Thanks for that Steve,
> an excellent contribution, very interesting
> Pete Hick (new member, Manchester UK)
>
> Peter Hick,
> Senior Lecturer, Inclusive Education,
> Institute of Education,
> Manchester Metropolitan University,
> 799 Wilmslow Rd, Didsbury,
> Manchester M20 2RR
> Phone: +44 (0) 161 247 2417
> FAX: +44 (0) 161 247 6368
> Email: p.hick@mmu.ac.uk
> Web: www.ioe.mmu.ac.uk
>
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> >>> Steve Gabosch <sgabosch@comcast.net> 03/19/08 8:22 AM >>>
> I found myself giving Vygostky's 1930 article "The Socialist
> Alteration of Man" a very careful read after studying Martin's
> unfinished paper on Vygotsky and class.
>
> In this essay Vygotsky identifies three roots to the alteration of the
> psychology of humankind under socialism. First, socialism will
> liberate humans from the drudgery and alienation of capitalism.
>
> Second, according to LSV, the ever growing power of human beings over
> nature will become liberated and operative with the expansion of large
> scale industry. Many positive things will result from this, including
> organizing a future based on the combination of intellectual and
> manual work, overcoming this historic division. Vygotsky emphasizes
> the idea of a polytechnic education, where the gap between physical
> and intellectual development would be abolished.
>
> Third, he explains, the very social relations between people will
> change, including the relations between the sexes. And if social
> relationships change, ideas, standards of behavior, requirements and
> tastes are also likely to change. These will all combine to lay the
> foundation for a new kind of human being.
>
> These classic socialist ideas articulated by LSV are all very well
> said, and I have no problem with any of them. But on closer
> inspection, this essay, in my opinion, is missing another very
> important and necessary "root" to deep-going psychological change
> under socialism, especially among workers. That missing root, in my
> opinion, is the transformation that will take place within workers
> (and their allies in other social classes) that are *participating in
> the class struggle itself* - as individuals, citizens and members and
> supporters of a politically emerging social class. As I see it, not
> just in the years leading up to the revolution, but especially in the
> long-term ongoing process of deepening that revolution and
> constructing a new society, the transformation of working people into
> the leading world social class - politically, socially,
> scientifically, intellectually, culturally - will also be a major root
> of the socialist alteration of humankind.
>
> We now know the dangers of bureaucratization and Stalinist
> counterrevolution in the years following a revolution - we saw it in
> the USSR, Eastern Europe and also China (again, apologies if I am
> being politically controversial, I realize some may vehemently
> disagree with various things I am saying here). I believe part of the
> solution to avoiding that kind of bureaucratization ever happening
> again is to develop a self-aware, self-actuated, subjectively
> conscious and politically empowered working class that is capable of
> leading the overall socialist process and overcoming such terrible
> dangers before they take root. I realize that my ideas here,
> influenced by the political work of Leon Trotsky and cothinkers, are
> rather in the minority (not to mention, are much better expressed by
> others). I am not at all trying to provoke a political dispute here,
> and humbly admit I am representing a highly optimistic notion of a
> future world socialist society based workers, which many do not
> share. But Vygotsky shared this socialist optimism, and that is why
> this missing piece in his essay seems important.
>
> This missing piece seems to reinforce Martin's two criticisms about
> Vygotsky underemphasizing class, which (in my words) suggest that
> Vygotsky underemphasized the role of class issues in child
> development, and incorrectly attributed "primitive" consciousness to
> cultural groups whose psychological characteristics might be better
> explained by their experiences in specific class and social structures.
>
> It hadn't occurred to me to notice on earlier readings of Socialist
> Alteration that Vygotsky did not speak of the impact on workers of
> their social and political participation in society. He speaks so
> eloquently of abolishing the oppression of capitalism, the emergence
> of heavy industry, combining intellectual and manual labor, changes in
> social relations, etc. that I did not think to look more deeply. But
> Martin's excellent line of questioning woke me up. By not speaking of
> the influence on the psychology of working people of their political
> and social emergence in society, it seems to me that something very
> important is being left out.
>
> I won't venture an explanation for this missing piece - I don't know
> enough about Vygotsky's views on working class power or his attitudes
> toward contemporary political struggles. But it is certainly tempting
> to wonder how much of his thinking Vygotsky had to suppress, with the
> Stalinist repressive machine being in full gear most of his life as a
> psychologist. It is also possible that precisely because the working
> class was suffering such a devastating political defeat all around him
> under the rise of the Stalinist bureaucracy that Vygotsky never really
> grasped the concept that the emergence of workers as the leading class
> of society was going to be a major factor in its psychological
> transformation. I really don't know.
>
> I would like to believe Vygotsky felt that workers power was going to
> be a major root in the alteration of humankind under socialism, but
> just couldn't say it. Perhaps more evidence one way or the other will
> emerge in coming years. And perhaps, as Martin suggests, Vygotsky
> believed that the USSR had become a classless society. But is there
> actually any evidence that he actually thought this?
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Martin Packer wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > I've posted this paper on my web pages. I'd welcome suggestions and
> > critique: it's in an early stage of its evolution!
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > <http://www.mathcs.duq.edu/~packer/Pubs/Packer<http://www.mathcs.duq.edu/%7Epacker/Pubs/Packer>06
> problems.pdf>
> >
> >
> > On 3/10/08 9:22 AM, "Steve Gabosch" <sgabosch@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> BTW, your paper refers to another paper of yours, where you discuss
> >> some problems you have with Vygotsky's conception of history, such as
> >> the "primitive" consciousness issue, and his lack of attention to
> >> social class in child development. "Packer, M. J. (2006) Is there a
> >> Vygotskian psychology after Marx?. Paper presented at the symposium
> >> "Is Vygotsky relevant today? Educational research with a socio-
> >> political commitment, annual meeting of the American Educational
> >> Research Association San Francisco." Is this available online?
> >>
> >> - Steve
> >
> >
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Received on Wed Mar 19 08:54 PDT 2008