Volker!
If everyone goes and looks at your wonderful picture and Rembrandt's it
might help us
move forward, whatever direction that is, and not in a vicious circle.
mike
On 1/12/07, Volker.hippie <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> wrote:
>
> Mike, what I meant was only connected to the thoughts about taking
> picture/film, not the topic of local, microgenetic zopeds in general.
>
> yes, and here we actually do not really know what Seth would say to the
> taking picture/film talk, though you mentioned his statement about being
> able to observe developmental change, as an argument that is will be
> difficult to document zopeds by media. Therefore I assumed, that you
> assumed, that you and Seth would agree about the picture issue. - I am
> sorry, if this was a too fast conclusion. :-)
>
> Fascinating Rembrandt picture, where I think I can "see" what you mean.
>
> Have to reread Seth's article, before I can say more, about the topic in
> general.
>
> Volker
>
> Mike Cole skrev:
> > I certainly believe in local, microgenetic zopeds, Volker. So far as I
> > can
> > tell from Seth's article that is in the papers for discussion on xmca,
> he
> > and I do not agree on this point, but perhaps I misread.
> >
> > Great picture. When you get a chance look this Rembrandt picture that
> Peg
> > Griffin brought to our
> > attention in an earlier discussion of this always fascinating, central
> > topic
> >
> > http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v19/commonbeauty/Rembrandt-walk-h.gif
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On 1/12/07, Volker.hippie <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Mike, - I think you ( and Seth Chaiklin) are right, it would only
> >> be possible in a LOCAL version, - yes, and sometimes artists,
> musicians,
> >> painters can move across this boarder - and still, the phenomenological
> >> experience of it, a ZPD on film or picture, still only would last for
> a
> >> short moment.
> >>
> >> If a short moment can make great impact, as Daniel Stern talks about in
> >> his newest book, is another topic?
> >>
> >> For now I want to show you all a picture, made by a photograph, Marc
> >> Schneider, in a refugee camp somewhere in Serbia, where the NGO "Hi
> >> Neighbour" tries to create hope with the jelp of by Vygotsky inspired
> >> plays and activities.
> >>
> >> ZPD
> >>
> >> The first, and second, and ... time I saw this picture I thought, or
> >> better I felt, - yes, he made it, a picture of a prototypical ZPD
> >> situation. - But, can you see what I see, or do I see what I see,
> >> because I have visited Serbia and the workshops of "Hi Neighour". - But
> >> that would be nearly the same than to ask, is this art. - Anyway, I
> hope
> >> you can "catch" the picture.
> >> ...
> >>
> >> You like "possibilties", the expression I have not seen before, in
> >> "Thinking and Speaking".
> >> But I would like you to say more about: But is multiplicity what
> >> everyone has in
> >> mind? I do not think so. This related directly
> >> to the issue of horizontal and vertical "dimensions" of development.
> >>
> >> Volker
> >>
> >> Mike Cole skrev:
> >> > Volker-- I believe you can take video recordings of a zoped. However,
> >> > ideal
> >> > it should be more than one event since the relative change in
> >> > responsibility
> >> > for carrying out some task that is the immediate environment for the
> >> > change
> >> > one is looking for may require that. There are some reasonbly good
> >> > descriptions of zopeds around IF and only IF the idea that when one
> >> > observes
> >> > developmental (qualitative ) change in interactions and shifts in
> >> > responsibility etc it applies to a LOCAL social situation of
> >> > developkent. As
> >> > I read Chaiklin, and sometimes (not always) LSV, developmental
> change
> >> > can
> >> > only count as such if it is to be seen across the board in all
> >> settings.
> >> > This is impression from Leontiev
> >> > in his book on development as well. IF that is the interpretation,
> >> > then no.
> >> > One would need a feature length film to gather evidence.
> >> >
> >> > I also like the idea of the word possiblities rather than proximal
> >> > because
> >> > of the implication of multiplicity. But is multiplicity what everyone
> >> > has in
> >> > mind? I do not think so. This related directly
> >> > to the issue of horizontal and vertical "dimensions" of development.
> >> > mike
> >> >
> >> > On 1/12/07, Volker.hippie <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dear Catalina, you are right. The term "nächsten" in German can be
> >> >> translated with next, but if we follow the root of the word, you are
> >> >> right, that would be "in der Nähe", that is nearby, proximal.
> >> >>
> >> >> What was new for me, to read by Vygotsky, is the combination of
> >> the two
> >> >> words, /nächsten Möglichkeiten/, that is in English the Zone of
> >> >> proximal, or better, nearby *possibilities*.
> >> >>
> >> >> For me the word possibilities (plural) seems almost postmodern in
> >> >> contrast to the word development.
> >> >>
> >> >> Nobody would know beforehand all the possibilities which are
> >> possible,
> >> >> though Vygotsky some pages earlier makes the statement that the
> range
> >> of
> >> >> possibilities (development) is somehow depended by the individual
> and
> >> >> the socio-cultural activities/signs which are in play. As Elena
> >> >> Kravtsova said in her speech in Moscow, at the 7th International
> >> >> Vygotsky Memorial Conference, in November 2006, /Vygotsky could in
> >> one
> >> >> way be (nearly) a biologist, pointing at the ground all human beings
> >> >> have in common /(our nature history, which Leontjev explained so
> >> nicely
> >> >> from the early beginnings of re-action and life), /and in the same
> >> time
> >> >> be a constructivist, where there always are possibilities for more
> >> >> possibilities, especially in the arts and the humanities./
> >> >>
> >> >> At the conference several speakers said, that Vygotsky was /in love
> >> with
> >> >> the crisis of psychology./
> >> >>
> >> >> And it could be, that I am in love with principles which invite
> both,
> >> or
> >> >> even several "language-games" to create Zones of nearby
> >> possibilities.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thank you for your reply, and correction, - next would actually be
> >> not
> >> >> the right term.
> >> >>
> >> >> Volker
> >> >>
> >> >> PS. Can you take photos of a ZPD?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Catalina Laserna skrev:
> >> >> > Thank you for the the reference to the German translation of
> >> "Speech
> >> >> > and Thought" -- I will try to get a copy. Although my German is
> >> >> > rusty, I am very aware of how much is lost in translation, for
> >> >> > example, certain passages of Heideggar make little sense in the
> >> >> English.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Anyway, I was thinking: would "nächsten" not also connote
> >> "nearby"?
> >> >> > The implication of this nuanced difference in wording is that
> >> >> > development would have an opportunistic aspect to it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Best,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Catalina
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Jan 11, 2007, at 5:44 AM, Volker.hippie wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Dear Cathrine, in "Denken und Sprechen", translated by
> >> Lompscher and
> >> >> >> Rückriem, I felt in love with the term, on page 253: "Aus dieser
> >> >> >> specifischen Zusammenarbeit zwischen Kind und Erwachsenem, die
> ...
> >> >> >> das zentrale Moment im Bildungsproces darstellt, erklärt sich die
> >> >> >> frühe Reifung wissenschaftlicher Begriffe sowie der Umstand, dass
> >> ihr
> >> >> >> Entwicklungsniveau als *Zone der nächsten Möglichkeiten (Zone for
> >> >> >> next possibilities) *hinsichtlich der Alltagsbegriffe wirkt,
> indem
> >> er
> >> >> >> ihnen als eine Art Propädeutik den Weg bahnt".
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Page 32: Um nachzuahmen, muss ich die Möglichkeit haben, von dem,
> >> was
> >> >> >> ich kann, zu dem überzugehen, was ich nicht kann.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I would like to give you some more quotes, but first I have to
> >> ask,
> >> -
> >> >> >> are you able to read German? In a way it would not make meaning
> to
> >> >> >> translate fx the term "Bildungsproces", because as I know they do
> >> not
> >> >> >> have a word for it, in English. "Bildung" is another one, of this
> >> >> >> funny words, where Bildung means to get educated, not only as we
> >> >> >> understand to learning, but, too, as socializing to a democratic
> >> >> >> human member of the world community.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> You could find the same passages in the translation by Kozulin,
> >> 1986,
> >> >> >> or Sevé, 1997, but for me , Lompscher/Rückriem (with the
> >> assistance
> >> >> >> of Elena Kravtsova, Ghita Vygodskaya) have been able to translate
> >> the
> >> >> >> words by Vygotsky in a way, as they express in the start of the
> >> book,
> >> >> >> closest to the Russian original text. - I don't know if that is
> >> the
> >> >> >> "really" the case, ...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Volker
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Cathrene Connery skrev:
> >> >> >>> Hi Volker,
> >> >> >>> Thanks for the interesting comments. Is it possible to select a
> >> >> >>> quote / selection regarding the ZPD from the text you
> >> mentioned and
> >> >> >>> post it for the list serve? Feliz dia (Have a happy day),
> >> >> >>> Cathrene
> >> >> >>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
> >> >> >>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education Central
> >> Washington
> >> >> >>> University
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>>>> "Volker.hippie" <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> 1/10/2007 8:59
> AM
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>> Yes, and the ZPD reminds me of the term Gibson used to describe
> >> >> >>> perception in a way, which made it possible to bridge between
> the
> >> >> >>> objective and subjective perception, which he named
> >> "/affordances/".
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> and I agree with Armando, the ZPD is something between the
> >> >> >>> individual and the other(s) - and it gets facilitated by common
> >> >> >>> joint activities.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> But that does not mean, that I can not take what I learn in a
> ZPD
> >> >> >>> with me, to others places, other and maybe even more
> >> developmental
> >> >> >>> ZPD's.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Just a thought, - that the real fantastic principles in
> >> psychology
> >> >> >>> are not either/or individual/collective principles, but both, at
> >> the
> >> >> >>> same time, in a dialectical way.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> It is therefore so wonderful to read Vygotsky - ´cause nobody
> >> has,
> >> >> >>> IMHO, come up with a clearer description of the ZPD than made by
> >> >> >>> Vygotsky in Denken und Sprechen, 2002, which is the
> >> translation by
> >> >> >>> Lompscher et al. .
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Volker
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Armando Perez skrev:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>> Eric: I dont like to look at ZPD as individual but as
> >> >> >>>> a colective interperson al situation. This means that
> >> >> >>>> ZPD do not belong to an individual but it is
> >> >> >>>> constructed or co-constructed. I also work in
> >> >> >>>> educational aplication of Vygotsky and I am tried to
> >> >> >>>> unified the concept od ZPD and Social Situation odf
> >> >> >>>> Development. What do you think about that
> >> >> >>>> Armando
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >> >> >>>> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> >> >>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> >> >>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>
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> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
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