Andy, I took an implication of:
"The test of the consequences of an act is the ideas, and thinking
generally, by which they
were brought about."
to be something like one needs intellectual standards by which to
determine the relevant information about consequences (what they are,
when they're determined, for whom, etc.). I was suggesting that, at
least for Dewey, we don't need this things, that they are all immanent
in the problematic situation. Perhaps I took your concerns too far,
though.
Best,
Matt
On 12/26/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> Matt, I have a lot of respect for Dewey, and I should probably have spoken
> more cautiously. I see Cultural-Historical Activity Theory as to a great
> extent a Russian-American creation, not just Russian. The excerpt kind of
> typified one of the great weaknesses of American Pragmatism - not
> particularly Dewey himself. And of course as you say, it is very much a
> part of that American tradition that ideas are valid only within the
> context of some real problem, not in themselves, and this is an important
> insight.
>
> I don't understand what you mean though by "a problem is not solved by
> intellectual or authoritative decision". Who says it is? Do you mean
> problems are solved *practically*?
>
> Michael: is "radical empiricism" the same as "pragmatism"?
>
> Andy
> At 07:48 PM 25/12/2006 -0500, you wrote:
> >I think Michael has exactly the right thing to say, here. Andy would
> >have Dewey dead to rights if we treat him as speaking apart from
> >situations and problems. But we have to remember that, for Dewey (and
> >I think, to a lesser degree of clarity, in the other American
> >pragmatists), all thinking happens in a context that is to some degree
> >non-intellectual. So, a problem is not just "thought up," it is felt,
> >it is existential, it is a real quality or feature of the situation of
> >organism-environment(-culture) interaction. And a problem is not
> >solved by intellectual or authoritative decision (though many have
> >tried to do so, most unfortunately in the case of some key
> >socio-political problems), it requires a change in the situation that
> >removes the problematicity (contradictions?).
> >
> >On 12/24/06, Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >>Andy,
> >>
> >>This sort of talks to Pragmatism's reliance on experimentalism. I found
> >>it interesting that David Backhurst used the term radical empiricism to
> >>describe the more liberal aspects of Lenin, because of course James
> >>termed his theoretical approach radical empiricism. The idea being you
> >>can only know what you do know from experimentation - and understanding
> >>the consequences comes from experimentation in particular
> >>situations. You determine what the problem is, you determine what the
> >>problem would look like if it was solved (in a very concrete manner), and
> >>you see if you achieved that end-in-view. Very concrete and very much
> >>attached to the situation. I believe that is what Dewey is talking about
> >>when he mentions consequences - the only issue is whether you have
> >>achieved a solution to the problem - if not, you go back and do another
> >>experiment.
> >>
> >>Michael
> >>
> >>________________________________
> >>
> >>From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden
> >>Sent: Sun 12/24/2006 6:01 PM
> >>To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>Subject: RE: [xmca] Zo-peds, roads, and Senseis
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 11:55 AM 24/12/2006 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >... >From Chapter 5 [Dewey]
> >> > "The test of ideas, of thinking generally, is found in the consequences
> >> > of the acts to which the ideas lead, that is in the new arrangements of
> >> > things which are brought into existence. Such is the unequivocal
> >> > evidence as to the worth of ideas which is derived from observing their
> >> > position and rule in experimental knowing. But tradition makes the tests
> >> > of ideas to be their agreement with some antecedent [i.e. already
> >> > existing] state of things. This change of outlook and standard from what
> >> > precedes to what comes after, from the retrospective to the prospective,
> >> > from antecedents to consequences, is extremely hard to accomplish. Hence
> >> > when the physical sciences describe objects and the world as being such
> >> > and such, it is thought that the description is of reality as it exists
> >> > in itself."
> >>
> >>It seems to me that the Achilles' heel of American Pragmatism is how it
> >>(and Dewey in the above passage) reduce the relation between consciousness
> >>and activity to: "The test of ideas, of thinking generally, is found in the
> >>consequences of the acts to which the ideas lead." This overlooks the fact
> >>that it is by no means given exactly what these consequences are, at what
> >>time consequences are deemed to have been realised, for whom they are
> >>effective, and from the standpoint of what system of activity they are
> >>assessed; all of which refers back to the very idea which is supposed to be
> >>tested in its consequences. One can equally say: "The test of the
> >>consequences of an act is the ideas, and thinking generally, by which they
> >>were brought about."
> >>
> >>Fascinating and important as Dewey is, I prefer Marx.
> >>
> >>Andy
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
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> >>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >Matt Brown (thehangedman@gmail.com)
> >Philosophy Graduate Student, UCSD
> >Web: http://thm.askee.net
> >_______________________________________________
> >xmca mailing list
> >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435, AIM
> identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
>
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-- Matt Brown (thehangedman@gmail.com) Philosophy Graduate Student, UCSD Web: http://thm.askee.net _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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