Thanks Sasha.Those who wish to pursue this thread will not have the relevant
materials
in hand.
mike
On 12/22/06, Alexander Surmava <monada@netvox.ru> wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I have David's text and attach it.
> I appreciate David's book as a great contribution in worldwide promotion
> of
> Il'enkov's philosophy, but frankly to say I find it enough ambiguous not
> to
> say muddling.
> Anyway reading this book one has to realize that it presents an
> interpretation of Il'enkov's (as well as Lenin's) philosophy from point of
> view which lies outside of materialism and dialectic.
> It's pity that it was not translated into Russian so that most of Russian
> philosophers can't read and discuss it.
> Sasha
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Mike Cole
> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:01 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] question
>
> Chapter 4 of David Bakhurst's book on Ilyenkov has a very illuminating
> discussion
> of these issues because he directly and seriously addresses Lenin whose
> ideas
> he characterizes as ambiguous. As a result of this ambiguity, writes DR,
> who
> quite
> different strands of Marxist interpretation grew up and that it was the
> anti-positivist
> side of the resulting ambiguity that Ileynkov adopted. I do not know if
> you
> have this
> text, Sasha.
>
> I cannot type it all in by hand and LCHC is now pretty much closed until
> New
> Years,
> but will try to find time to relay a few key passages. If someone with the
> book and
> a scanner can help, that would be great.
> mike
>
> On 12/20/06, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Sasha,
> >
> > I agree entirely that an interpretation of Marx will always be from one
> or
> > another stance. It seems to me that there are large differences between
> > Marx
> > scholarship in the west and that in Russia. When you say, for example,
> > that
> > there is there is only one school of Marxist philosophy in Russia that
> > strikes me as both a strength and a weakness. My knowledge of Marx is
> > without a doubt far inferior to yours, but I hope that it has been
> > richened
> > by exploring a little how Marx was read by people like Lefebvre, Sartre,
> > Merleau-Ponty, and read back into Hegel by Kojeve, Hyppolite, Lukacs,
> and
> > others. I'm not trying to sound erudite; my point is that Marx's texts
> are
> > ambiguous, plurivocal, and any attempt to determine the real Marx, or
> > decide
> > once and for all how Marx related to Hegel, for example, is an endless
> > task.
> > Marx's writings have been called "a breathtakingly luxuriant but tangled
> > forest."
> >
> > For example, the interpretation that Marx had already 'inverted' Hegel
> has
> > been much contested. To think that there is merely a rational kernel to
> > Hegel is a matter of debate, to say the least. To call the 1844
> > manuscripts
> > preliminary in anything other than a literal sense is to repeat a claim
> > that
> > has been much challenged.
> >
> > But let me defend myself a little: Engels used the term "historical
> > materialism," while Marx did not (though I think Kautsky coined it).
> Lenin
> > wrote of "dialectical materialism" in Materialism and Empiricocriticism.
> > Stalin is not worth defending, I agree. To paint HM as true and DM as
> > false
> > does not get me very far in trying to understand what Vygotsky was doing
> > with these terms, with the texts they came from, and thus to see what
> can
> > be
> > teased out of the tangled forest of Vygotsky's own writings.
> >
> > For example, my question to Joao was based what seems to me evident
> > (though
> > I'm willing to be corrected): that Vygotsky himself drew a distinction
> > between HM and DM, and on my reading he judges them both positively.
> >
> > Yes, Vygotsky considered himself to be a Marxist. But what that meant to
> > him
> > then, and what it means to us now, are not self-evident matters. Reading
> > Vygotsky's texts here in the US in one way I am at a disadvantage
> because
> > the culture and context are so different from his. But from another
> point
> > of
> > view this makes it possible to try to liberate a potential from his
> > writing
> > that might not otherwise be accessible. I am not a Marxist (in any
> direct
> > sense) but I do want to develop his ideas. If you are correct that "if
> we
> > want develop Vygotsky¹s ideas
> > > and if we appreciate his conscious position we can do it only basing
> on
> > > Marxist approach"
> > then scholarship on Vygotsky in the west is in deep trouble!
> >
> > One last thing- you also suggest that:
> > prevailing attitude towards LSV as to ideal example of Marxist
> > > dialectical logic
> >
> > While I would say that this is actually a very rare attitude to Vygotsky
> > in
> > this country.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > p.s. can I add that I attended your presentation at ISCAR in Sevilla and
> > was
> > very impressed by your intellectual project. It is a pleasure to be
> > discussing these matters with you!
> >
> >
> > On 12/20/06 9:47 PM, "Alexander Surmava" <monada@netvox.ru> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I think that the interpretation of Marxist philosophy (dialectic) has
> to
> > be
> > > based on some definite cultural = scientific = philosophical tradition
> > or
> > > school of thought. Thus my approach is entirely based on Il¹enkov¹s
> > school
> > > of dialectic. This approache I share with all of his disciples among
> > which I
> > > have to mention Felix Mikhailov, Lev Naumenko, Vasiliy Davidov, Alexey
> > > Novokhatko, Alexander Simakin, Sergey Mareev and some other
> philosophers
> > and
> > > psychologists.
> > >
> > > According to this approach the basics of Marxist philosophy was
> > elaborated
> > > by Karl Marx and Fred Engels in the course of investigation of
> political
> > > economy of capitalist society in ³Das Kapital² and in a few
> preliminary
> > > works like ³Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844², ³The German
> > > Ideology² and ³Theses on Feuerbach². Engels only aired his and Marx¹
> > > collective opinion in his latest works like ³Anti-Dühring². We (I mean
> > all
> > > mentioned above alive or dead persons) have never heard that it was
> > Engels
> > > who ³extracted the rational kernel' from Hegel to invent it and DM²
> > because
> > > from one side the work of extraction of rational, materialist Kernel
> > from
> > > Hegel was done by both founders of materialist dialectic in 1844 and
> > > developed in ³Das Kapital² and from the other side because the
> separate
> > DM
> > > is entirely false positivist misinterpretation of Marxist philosophy
> and
> > > that Engels quite innocent in it.
> > >
> > > Even less we can accuse Lenin of inventing or elaborating of abstract
> DM
> > > because it was Lenin who was the utmost enemy of all forms of
> > positivism.
> > >
> > > On the contrary the Stalinist ideology was in fact the queer mixture
> of
> > > primitive positivist ³DM² and irrational ideological ³HM².
> > >
> > > I want to repeat that this point of view is not my own peculiarity but
> > > something banal for all Russian Marxists. (There is only one Marxist
> > > philosophical school in Russia founded by Il¹enkov, so when I mention
> > > ³Russian Marxists² I mean Il¹enkov¹s disciples.)
> > >
> > > Surely all this can be argued in detail but first of all we have to
> fix
> > the
> > > difference in our approaches, if such differences really exist.
> > >
> > > As for question of Joao about LSV¹s approach to this problem it is
> > difficult
> > > (and frankly to say rather senseless) to try to give some definite
> > answer to
> > > it because the ³problem² of establishing a ³difference between
> dialectic
> > > materialism and historical materialism² is not a substantial theoretic
> > but
> > > entirely ideological question (in old Marxist meaning of the term
> > ³ideology²
> > > as a false form of consciousness). I can only repeat that basing on
> > > developed Marxist dialectical approach so called DM and HM are one and
> > the
> > > same thing.
> > >
> > > Surely Vygotsky consider himself as a Marxist, he wanted to be a
> Marxist
> > and
> > > pretty much he was a Marxist. Moreover if we want develop Vygotsky¹s
> > ideas
> > > and if we appreciate his conscious position we can do it only basing
> on
> > > Marxist approach.
> > >
> > > But we have sober estimate that the real logic of his investigations
> not
> > > always remain Marxist. Thus for example Vygotsky¹s understanding of
> > language
> > > is considerably positivist. (This assertion can be easily
> demonstrated.)
> > So
> > > the prevailing attitude towards LSV as to ideal example of Marxist
> > > dialectical logic is to put it mildly inadequate. Vygotsky wanted to
> > build a
> > > Marxist psychology and he did much more than anybody else to realize
> his
> > > wish, but he had too little time to do it. Moreover he meets the other
> > big
> > > obstacle not enunciating of Marxist dialectic. The dialectical
> method
> > of
> > > Marx was realized by him in his main work ³Das Kapital², but neither
> > Marx,
> > > nor Engels has left us ³Logic² from capital letter. So Vygotsky had in
> > the
> > > same time investigate the nature of human consciousness and extract
> > > dialectical methodology from ³Das Kapital². In fact the task was too
> > titanic
> > > for one even genius man. In this situation it is little wonder that he
> > > failed in realizing both tasks (elaborating dialectical methodology
> and
> > > developing a dialectical psychology) but it deserves admiration that
> in
> > > spite of all difficulties LSV left us a great number of brilliant
> > insights.
> > >
> > > The real perspective of developing of dialectical psychology was
> opened
> > only
> > > in the middle of the last century by works of a group of researchers
> > like
> > > Evald Il¹enkov, Alexander Mescheriakov, Alexey Leont¹ev and Nikolay
> > > Bernstein.
> > >
> > > So the sooner we will left the uncritical apologetical attitude
> > regarding
> > > Vygotsky, the better chance we acquire to continue his lifework.
> > >
> > > Sasha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Martin Packer
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:59 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Joao,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your project sounds interesting. I think you're pointing to something
> of
> > a
> > >
> > > contradiction that I feel is in the Crisis, and perhaps elsewhere. On
> > the
> > >
> > > one hand V does speak of the problem of using either historical
> > materialism
> > >
> > > or dialectical materialism for his "general psychology," a truly
> Marxist
> > >
> > > psychology. The former was appropriate for Marx's sociology, a study
> of
> > >
> > > society, but he's doing something different. The latter is too
> abstract.
> > On
> > >
> > > the other hand, the history that he tells of the discipline of
> > psychology is
> > >
> > > one in which there is an objective logic, operating behind the backs
> of
> > >
> > > individual psychologists ("like a coiled string"), the laws of this
> > logic
> > >
> > > can be grasped through "scientific analysis," there are underlying
> > inherent
> > >
> > > contradictions, a revolutionary moment (the "crisis") has arrived as a
> > >
> > > result of the pressure of practical concerns, and a future can be
> > envisioned
> > >
> > > where, in the form of the new general psychology, qualitatively
> > different
> > >
> > > from what has come before, time has ended. In short, this history has
> a
> > form
> > >
> > > that sounds (to the best of my limited knowledge) very much like that
> > >
> > > dialectical materialism.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What do you think? (Sorry not to be able to write in Portugese)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12/19/06 11:07 AM, "Joao Martins" <jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Martins and others... the title of my project is " The psychology of
> > >
> > >> Vygotsky: mapping concepts, tracing courses ". He has as objective
> maps
> > > the
> > >
> > >> concepts, the units of analysis used by Vygotsky to consolidate your
> > >
> > >> proposals for the psychology.
> > >
> > >> I will be analyzing your books: Psychology of the Art and Pedagogic
> > >
> > >> Psychology and the texts that appeared in your Chosen Works.
> > >
> > >> In a first moment we can notice that Vyg. uses of the dialetic
> > materialism
> > >
> > >> to make the analyses about the superior psychological functions, or
> > even
> > > to
> > >
> > >> analyze the psychology of your time - in the text Crisis of the
> > Psychology
> > >
> > >> that is clear.
> > >
> > >> But he speaks that the problem is to use the historical materialism
> to
> > > make
> > >
> > >> such analyses. I think that he sees in the historical materialism a
> > form
> > > of
> > >
> > >> approaching the psychological phenomena, approaching of a certain
> > > sociology
> > >
> > >> of the human relationships...
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> Do you understand?
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> Joao Martins
> > >
> > >> ____________________
> > >
> > >> Joáo Batista Martins
> > >
> > >> R. Pref. Hugo Cabral, 1062 - apto. 142
> > >
> > >> Londrina - PR - CEP 86020-111
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> Home page http//www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/5389
> > >
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > >> From: "Martin Packer" <packer@duq.edu>
> > >
> > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:21 PM
> > >
> > >> Subject: Re: [xmca] question
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> Joao,
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> Would you like to tell us more about your project?
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> Martin
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> On 12/18/06 11:38 AM, "Joao Martins" <jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >>> Dear friends, I am making a project on vygotsky and I would like to
> > know
> > >
> > >> if
> > >
> > >>> Vygotsky establish a difference between dialetic materialism and
> > >
> > >> historical
> > >
> > >>> materialism?
> > >
> > >>>
> > >
> > >>> Joao Martins
> > >
> > >>> ____________________
> > >
> > >>> Joáo Batista Martins
> > >
> > >>> R. Pref. Hugo Cabral, 1062 - apto. 142
> > >
> > >>> Londrina - PR - CEP 86020-111
> > >
> > >>>
> > >
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >>> xmca mailing list
> > >
> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > xmca mailing list
> > >
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
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> >
> >
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