This is a great discussion. I wonder, though, what makes a sensei
different from a musical master that teaches an instrument through
repeated practice. Is just repeated practiced modeled by a mentor
sufficient to account for the phenomenon?
On Dec 21, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Paul Dillon wrote:
> Eric,
>
> I don't think the idea of a "cultural systems" has a "theoretical
> construct" upon which all anthropologists agree (or any others who
> use the concept of culture) so I think the zpd and culture are
> about at the same level in this sense. I say this as a practicing
> anthropologist (ie, one actively involved the study of "culture",
> in my case Andean culture) which is also the field in which I have
> my advanced degrees.
>
> Like the zpd , "culture" can be looked at from a lot of
> perspectives. There are different schools of thought about it,
> there is no paradigm (in the Kuhnian sense) for "culture" or for
> "cultural systems" so the problem is just moved back one level when
> you use that concept to talk about the limitations of another one.
>
> Nevertheless, both culture and zoped are extremely useful
> concepts for a variety of practical and theoretical applications.
> Maybe the desire to have scientific concepts that resemble those of
> the natural sciences is just starting of on the wrong foot when
> dealing with the socio-cultural (and by implication psychological)
> level.
>
> Paul
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>
> Paul:
> As a metaphor Vygotsky's ZPD explains his thinking very well, as a
>
>
> theoretical construct it does not have the capacity to be analyzed
> in a
>
>
> manner that separates an individual's systems from the cultural
> systems
>
>
> which are elucidating and canalizing an individual's developments,
>
>
> subsequently Valsiner has dissected Vygotsky's ZPD into three zones
> that
>
>
> not only explain human development more precisely but provide
>
>
> methodological tools that allow researchers to discuss developmental
>
>
> systems with more specific lucidity.
>
>
> Valsiner separated Vygotsky's ZPD into three different zones that he
>
>
> labeled the Zone of Free Movement (ZFM), the Zone of Promoted
> Action (ZPA)
>
>
> and a much more specific Zone of Proximal Development (ZPD). When I
>
>
> introduced his "Process structure of semiotic mediation" paper a
> few months
>
>
> back it did not meet with much support. I do not want to spend much
> time
>
>
> discussing his more specific zone approach because that as well may
> not be
>
>
> what people are interested in. If people are it is available in his
> book,
>
>
> "Culture and the development of children's actions."
>
>
>
>
>
> eric
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul Dillon
>
>
> yahoo.com> cc:
> Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] perhaps. . . sensei
> xmca-bounces who-is-at web
> er.ucsd.edu
>
>
> 12/21/2006 10:33
> AM
> Please respond
> to "eXtended
> Mind, Culture,
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
> I wasn't denying that there are "logical matrices" within the
> individual
> practices, only that the search for one overarching definition that
> would
> encompass all of the practices might be trying to make a road that
> really
> goes nowhere. But even within hospitals and other institutions
> there are
> lots of different areas of practice ranging from the technical (eg
> surgery)
> to the political (learning how, as a nurse, you need to relate to
> doctors
> or administrators)
>
> Paul
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>
> Paul Dillon wrote:
>
> "Sensei, nothing more nor less than someone farther down the road,
> what's
> the practice and what needs does it relate to? Looking for some
> absolute
> concept of zoped seems pointless, trying to define it so that one
> could
> identify it in any context on the basis of a Carnapian logical matrix,
> impossible. The key I think is to look at the practice, identify
> its road
> and see how far people are along that road and how they make that road
> relevant to someone who might not even know the road is there.
> Expanding
> is moving beyond the known roads into what was previously unknown."
>
> I beleive on the ontogenetic level (learning/development) this is
> extremely
> helpful, but on the phylogenetic level(personality/socialization)it
> misses
> much of the cultural-historical emphasis. Engstrom's learning by
> expanding
> emphasises broad cultural entities (hospitals and other work
> places). In
> these settings there are logical matrixes/structures.
>
> what do you think?
> eric
>
>
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David Preiss, Ph.D.
Profesor Auxiliar / Assistant Professor
Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile
Escuela de Psicología
Av Vicuña Mackenna 4860
Macul, Santiago
Chile
Fono: 3544605
Fax: 3544844
e-mail: davidpreiss@uc.cl
web personal: http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
web institucional: http://www.uc.cl/psicologia
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