Thanks Katarina-- Reijo's work is always interesting! He has a fine article
relating to actor-network theory and CHAT in MCA in 1999 as well.
On 12/17/06, Katarina Rodina <katarina.rodina@isp.uio.no> wrote:
>
> Mike and Michael,
>
> perhaps Miettinen's article is interesting for you:
>
> Miettinen, R.(2006). Epistemology of Transformative Material Activity:John
> Dewey`s Pragmatism and Cultural-Historical Activity Theory". Journal for
> the Theory of Social Behaviour 36:4, 389-408.
>
> Katarina
>
>
>
> On Sun, December 17, 2006 18:27, Mike Cole wrote:
> > The invocation of Anselm Strauss strikes me as very useful, Michael. In
> > our
> > work in long lasting idiocultures participated in by kids and
> undergrads,
> > the kids are, at various times and
> > for various valued activities, more expert than the undergrads and there
> > is
> > a constantly shifting balance of knowledge/expertise/helpfulness over
> the
> > course of a year or more as different
> > participants come and go. Our undergrads actually come to interpreting
> > zopeds as REQUIRING a mixture of play and learning/teaching as a result
> of
> > their experience. We would need to know if we were talking about cases
> > where
> > we want to invoke a distinctive notion of development or we were talking
> > about learning. I believe I could come up with some for our situation.
> > Where
> > might we find them for Dr./Nurse cases? Perhaps in Strauss? What about
> > Middleton? Some concrete examples would help. But the general idea
> > certainly
> > fits my experience.
> >
> > As to Dewey on Vygotsky. Who gets angry at the suggestion that Vygotsky
> > read
> > Dewey? There is textual evidence showing he did (although I do not much
> > like
> > some of LSV's
> > interpretations!). It is another matter altogether to place a lot of
> > weight
> > on the idea that they met, exchanged ideas, etc.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On 12/17/06, Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have been reading some of the discussion on Zoped and have been
> >> wondering more and more if Anselm Strauss' ideas on negotiated ordering
> >> might have some important implications for the way some people view the
> >> Zoped as a concept. Strauss suggested that the ordering in activity -
> >> he
> >> did not really talk about development (he was Mead's student) - but
> >> concentrated more on the ongoing dynamic activity itself. What he
> >> suggested
> >> was that the relationship between those who were in charge and knew
> what
> >> to
> >> do, and those who looked to those people in charge, was dynamic and
> >> dependent on the problems that were being faced. The hierarchy and
> also
> >> the
> >> allocation of resources (which I find interesting and possibly one of
> >> the
> >> core issues) is predetermined. But in the process of the ongoing
> >> activity,
> >> as the problems changed, the actual ordering within the community
> >> changes to
> >> meet the problem at hand. One of his most interesting studies was of
> an
> >> emergency room in San Francisco. While on paper and in allocation of
> >> resources doctors were the titula heads of the emergency room, when
> >> crises
> >> occurred there was a reordering of roles, where the nurses became the
> >> defacto heads of the activity, and the doctors looked to the nurses and
> >> understood this. I think one of the problems is that what happens is
> >> that
> >> what happens in process is then not re-translated into understanding.
> >> The
> >> doctors re-claim their roles as experts after the crisis and from what
> I
> >> can
> >> tell make little effort to share resources with the nurses.
> >>
> >> Perhaps negotiated ordering has important implications for the Zoped as
> >> well (is such a concept applicable to Vygotsky? Well I continue to
> >> believe
> >> that Vygotsky was reading Dewey in his early career and was influenced
> >> by
> >> him - but of course even saying this gets a lot of people angry. And
> >> Anselm
> >> Strauss was working from a base developed by Mead and Dewey). From
> what
> >> I
> >> have been reading, one of the things people are trying to explore is
> >> this
> >> notion is that there is some sense of negotiated ordering in the Zoped
> >> where, when facing different problems, different members of a learning
> >> community take different positions in the learning/development equation
> >> (can
> >> we really differentiate learning from development and would we want
> >> to?). This maybe works especially well if we are looking at learning
> >> from a
> >> dialectical perspective - because what needs to happen for learning to
> >> occur
> >> is for something to make you question what you are thinking, to cloud
> >> the
> >> issues that you were sure of. I think of Piaget and the early work he
> >> did
> >> with his own children. Wasn't Piaget actually learning - in a
> >> dialectical
> >> fashion - from his own children. I think of my relationship with my
> own
> >> children and I know they did things that completely threw me for a
> loop,
> >> completely made me re-think issues I thought were set in my mind. They
> >> were
> >> creating a natural disturbance in my Zoped. But by admitting this I
> >> have to
> >> admit I learn from my three year old - not in a cute type way, but in a
> >> real
> >> way where I have to give up my mantle of expert in our relationship.
> >>
> >> Yet we have a great deal invested in this culture of the expert - the
> >> idea
> >> that the expert teaches and the student learns. I hate to say it -
> >> because
> >> I'd rather stay away from economic issues - but it is also a part of
> our
> >> capitalist base and how we allocate resources. We pay experts more
> >> because
> >> they are experts, we hire them as consultants because they are experts,
> >> we
> >> let them act as gate keepers and decision makers because they are
> >> experts. I wonder to what extent Vygotsky has been assimilated in to
> >> this
> >> entire culture of experts?
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Mike Cole
> >> Sent: Sun 12/17/2006 10:47 AM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zopeds at the cultural historical level
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Andy-- When you write:
> >> Hegel does not talk about "assisting" the
> >> learning subject, but rather of subordinating them.
> >>
> >> I think you get near the heart of Yrjo's thought experiment in
> >> "development
> >> as breaking away" and
> >> socialization theories (which, heaven help us, are often the implicit
> >> theories behind talks concerning
> >> zopeds). The adults in Yrjo's (Hoag's) story are seeking to "raise
> >> up/normalize" the children by subordinating
> >> them to a social order with lots of rules and strictures as the means
> to
> >> their "development", e.g. growing up
> >> to replicate that order. Breaking away is the only way UP as well as
> >> OUT.
> >> But, of course, such subordination
> >> is talked about as benevolent assistance.
> >>
> >> What makes it all very complicated even in the ontogentic case is that
> >> subordination and assistance are so
> >> closely related to each other. The duality of structure? After all, the
> >> core
> >> of the method of dual stimulation,
> >> in Vygotsky's words, is to "subordinate oneself to an external
> stimulus"
> >> as
> >> a means of achieving self control
> >> "from the outside" in order to break free of local situational
> >> constraints.
> >>
> >> As problematic as this is at the ontogenetic, intergenerational level,
> >> it
> >> simply gets more so at the culturalhistorical
> >> level.
> >>
> >> Might not institutions such as, for example, the National Academy of
> >> Sciences, be a social instrument whereby certain
> >> individuals are chosen to act as more knowledgable peers, who society
> >> uses
> >> as a means to its own self development?
> >> Or, if one approves less secular social instrumentalities, the synod of
> >> bishops?
> >>
> >> Thoughts for a spinkly sunday morning where the sun is making its
> >> reappearance after a too-brief visit of some rain.
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On 12/17/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I don't know, Hegel was theorising modernity not multiculturalism.
> But
> >> > according to Hegel social learning is not a process of imitation, or
> >> > civilisation "rubbing off" on people, but of the production and use
> of
> >> the
> >> > artefacts of a society in the production of the needs of that society
> >> > according to its laws. True, Hegel does not talk about "assisting"
> the
> >> > learning subject, but rather of subordinating them.
> >> > Andy
> >> > At 06:07 PM 15/12/2006 -0800, you wrote:
> >> > >Andy,
> >> > >
> >> > > I totally agree with your extended analysis of Hegel. The
> problem
> >> is
> >> > > that when we look at the reality of the relations that arise
> between
> >> > > conquered and conquerers the patterns of assimilation are really
> >> quite
> >> > > different. The conquered often "shuck and jive", move slowly,
> >> withdraw
> >> > > into smaller and smaller universes where they preserve the core of
> >> their
> >> > > identity prior to being conquered. Eric Wolf called this the "gods
> >> > > beneath the altar". As I remember Benjamin's "Theses on Historical
> >> > > Materialism", he pointed to this: histories are stopped but not
> >> > > necessarily eliminated, these chronological frameworks within which
> >> the
> >> > > phylogenetic zopeds exist, but they are waiting to begin
> >> again. History
> >> > > isn't unilinear, something Marx saw quite clearly in the
> >> ethnological
> >> > > studies he was undertaking at the end of his life. For Hegel,
> >> history
> >> > > was unilinear and Reason was the telos toward which everything
> >> cultural
> >> > > and historical moved. Not so Marx.
> >> > >
> >> > > Another important thing I remember about the hegelian
> master-slave
> >> > > dialectic concerns the role of work in developing the universal
> >> essence
> >> > > that later becomes the basis of the post-feudal
> civilizations. Very
> >> > > materialistic really.
> >> > >
> >> > > The question I think about a lot, especially in light of the
> >> "andean
> >> > > cosmovision" movements, of which Evo Morales is a happy surfer, is
> >> > > whether the elements that have been conserved can be developed
> again
> >> > with
> >> > > their own dynamic, that the "other" way of putting the pieces
> >> together
> >> > > can become a dynamic in it's own right. There is a very advanced
> >> > > movement down here in that direction. Right now, the City of Villa
> >> el
> >> > > Salvador, originally a "squatter's settlement" to the south of Lima
> >> > > (something very comparable to El Alto's relationship with La Paz in
> >> > > Bolivia) is hosting a "Reawaken the Native Gods (wakas)" reunion,
> >> > > inviting shamans from the highlands to Paracas (the third most
> >> important
> >> > > ceremonial site at the time of the Conquest) for three days to pray
> >> and
> >> > > dance and revitalize those spiritual forces. A lot of people here
> >> move
> >> > > in that direction which isn't a simple nationalism since it is
> >> > > pan-Andean, refers to the non-European, to another ontology as one
> >> > friend
> >> > > puts it.
> >> > >
> >> > > Like I said, I don't think Hegel sheds much light on this process
> >> or
> >> > > how the conquered manage to preserve that sense of identity in
> codes
> >> > that
> >> > > resist rational penetration.
> >> > >
> >> > > Paul
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >> > > Paul, I let my contribution to this thread drop, because I wasn't
> >> sure
> >> > how
> >> > >much a compare-and-contrast of Hegel's master-servant and Vygotsky's
> >> > ZOPED
> >> > >was useful. But anyway ...
> >> > >
> >> > >The essence of the master-slave dialectic is this (IMO): the master
> >> > >incorporates the material energies of the servant into its own
> system
> >> of
> >> > >needs and their satisfaction, so that all the artefacts of the
> >> conquered
> >> > >subject are destroyed as artefacts and their materiality (the land,
> >> > >products, etc and the bodies of the human individuals) is
> >> re-organised
> >> as
> >> > >part of the subjectivity of the coloniser (their meaning is
> changed),
> >> by
> >> > >virtue of the dominated people labouring under the direction of the
> >> > master,
> >> > >meeting the master's needs according to the methods of the master,
> >> the
> >> > >servant's lands and bodies being redefined as resources for meeting
> >> the
> >> > >needs of the master. The servant not only loses all control of their
> >> own
> >> > >activity, but are forced into activity which they neither understand
> >> nor
> >> > >see the need for. Thus the "unhappy consciousness." But as Paul
> says,
> >> by
> >> > >performing the activity defined by the coloniser's subjectivity,
> they
> >> > >become officienados in that activity, thus arises (development and)
> >> > >self-consciousness.
> >> > >
> >> > >The servant's material activity mediates between the master's needs
> >> > >(consciousness) and their satisfaction in the form of culture; the
> >> > master's
> >> > >culture and consciousness mediates between the slave's activity and
> >> their
> >> > >consciousness of that activity.
> >> > >
> >> > >The shared core of this conception with Vygotsky's ZPD is that of
> the
> >> > >dominant culture, represented by a dominant subject, determines both
> >> the
> >> > >activity that the 'learner' must perform and the needs being
> >> fulfilled;
> >> > >doing without understanding leads to understanding of doing,
> >> ultimately,
> >> > >the non-subject becomes a free and equal member of the dominant
> >> activity
> >> > an
> >> > >culture by learning to reproduce it by their own activity.
> >> > >
> >> > >For Hegel this is the dialectic by which *self-consciousness
> >> emerges*;
> >> it
> >> > >is the dialectic relating subjective consciousness and objective
> >> > >consciousness.
> >> > >
> >> > >I don't know if that help anything or not. I'm not sure.
> >> > >
> >> > >Andy
> >> > >At 01:45 PM 15/12/2006 -0800, you wrote:
> >> > > >mike,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I've just gone back to read some xmca posts -- been computer
> >> deprived
> >> > > > for a bit and stuck to using internet cabinets in Lima for very
> >> brief
> >> > > > stuff. I had erased a lot of messages but found that I hadn't
> read
> >> the
> >> > > > one you originally posted, to which I'm now replying, probably
> >> > postponing
> >> > > > it until I could read more carefully. Then I went to the xmca
> >> website
> >> > to
> >> > > > check the thrread in detail and found it had bifurcated, someone
> >> > posted a
> >> > > > reply, changing the subject name to something about more
> competent
> >> > > > peers. That thread grew a lot and I haven't read all those
> >> messages
> >> so
> >> > > > I'm not sure whether the original thread concerning
> >> > cultural-historical
> >> > > > zopeds continued there.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The way you phrased the problem was quite clear and Andy's
> >> response
> >> > > > about conquest and colonization most interesting. resonating with
> >> an
> >> > > > earlier exchange around the book about native american science.
> In
> >> the
> >> > > > 1500s the conquering Europeans were arguably less culturally
> >> advanced
> >> > in
> >> > > > many fields of human practices (engineering, mathematics,
> >> astronomy,
> >> > > > agriculture, institutional administration, just to mention a few)
> >> than
> >> > > > the people they conquered. They really only had an advantage in
> >> > > > weaponry. And there was absolutely no zoped functioning in either
> >> > > > direction it seems, just a master-slave relation. For Hegel that
> >> > > > relation turns into a pyrrhic victory followed by the
> esse"Unhappy
> >> > > > Consciousness" in which the dominated slave realizes its own nce
> >> to
> >> be
> >> > > > the negation of the Individual and the true universality of
> >> > consciousness
> >> > > > as something trans-individual. The slave realizes that s/he is
> the
> >> > truth
> >> > > > of the Master. I always recall the scene from the movie Spartacus
> >> when
> >> > the
> >> > > > Roman general asks: Who is Spartacus? and one by one all of the
> >> > > > rebelling slaves stand up and claim to Spartacus. Then they are
> >> all
> >> > > > crucified, of course. But that transition isn't an example of a
> >> zoped
> >> > so
> >> > > > Hegel isn't much help here.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The problem of more advanced cultural forms is certainly an
> >> important
> >> > > > one, but when I wrote the query concerning the historical
> >> dimensions
> >> > of
> >> > > > the zoped, I wasn't really thinking about the problem in quite
> the
> >> way
> >> > > > you phrased it, that is I wasn't really thinking about more or
> >> less
> >> > > > advanced cultures as defined in terms of specific practices (I
> >> don't
> >> > > > think it would be possible to specify that one culture is
> superior
> >> to
> >> > > > another in any absolute sense, but yes at the level of specific
> >> > > > practices), I was really wondering about the transmission of
> >> customs
> >> > and
> >> > > > habits that seems to occur without any conscious teaching
> >> involved,
> >> > but
> >> > > > which is part of the package when a child is learning the basics,
> >> that
> >> > > > historical dimension that moves at the backs of people, without
> >> their
> >> > > > knowledge or awareness. I don't see how we can doubt that this
> >> goes
> >> > on;
> >> > > > e.g., learning racism implicitly in nursery rhymes, learning the
> >> > > > individualism (looking out for good old number one first) also
> >> seems
> >> > to
> >> > > > qualify as something that isn't so much taught as a specific
> skill
> >> > > > imparted by a more knowledgeable member of the group, but as a
> >> > corrolary
> >> > > > to learning itself within certain cultures, just as learning that
> >> the
> >> > > > family comes first is dominant in others. It's very clear to me
> >> that
> >> > > > there is a big gap between people's real morality and their ideal
> >> one
> >> > and
> >> > > > that practicality (living in the world with the skills we've
> >> learned)
> >> > is
> >> > > > usually the reason given to explain the difference between the
> >> > > > two. Yeah, it'd be great to turn the other cheek but in reality
> no
> >> one
> >> > > > does because that's just not the way the world works.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If such is the case, that these dimensions, primarily moral and
> >> > ethical
> >> > > > ones, are transmitted first in this kind of "blind" way , then
> the
> >> > > > modification of these levels must depend on something other than
> >> the
> >> > kind
> >> > > > of direct teaching that characterizes a zoped.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Perhaps the examples given by Yrjo point in this direction more
> >> than
> >> I
> >> > > > realized and I'll have to go back and look at that: but as I
> >> remember,
> >> > > > these "expansions" involved breaking out, destroying old
> >> structures,
> >> > and
> >> > > > clearing a space for new ones. What bigger space than a raft on
> >> the
> >> > > > Mississippi River? The idea that a zoped is a conversation with a
> >> > future
> >> > > > seems very useful to me, the question of course: what is that
> >> > > > future? Andy's statement that phylogenesis is about "pulling
> >> oneself
> >> > up
> >> > > > by the bootstraps" enters here. But really, how is it possible to
> >> > avoid
> >> > > > teleology?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Lately I've been very much impressed what could be called
> >> "historical
> >> > > > traumas", events and processes extending over a period of time,
> >> that
> >> > > > leave what I can only describe metaphorically as topography
> within
> >> > which
> >> > > > the rivers of consciousness/mind flow. This a result of living
> >> again
> >> > in
> >> > > > the Andes where a suppressed past is constantly whispering
> beneath
> >> the
> >> > > > present day-to-day activities. There are major traumas: the
> >> Conquest
> >> > in
> >> > > > the Americas , extirpation of idolatries=attempted destruction of
> >> > > > indigenous belief systems, whose effects are still reverberating
> >> after
> >> > > > 500 years, and there are lesser ones, like the social-political
> >> > violence
> >> > > > that lasted in the Central Andes for about 15 years (1980-1995)
> >> but
> >> > whose
> >> > > > effects shape the way parents relate to their children, silences,
> >> all
> >> > > > those things left unsaid, The same song sung by both sides of the
> >> war:
> >> > > > Flor de la Retama. .
> >> > > >
> >> > > > When Zlatcko addressed my initial post in which I suggested that
> >> Paolo
> >> > > > Freire's notion of situation-limits (something he got from Karl
> >> > Jaspers)
> >> > > > had a bearing in the question of what happens in a zoped, he
> >> brought
> >> > up
> >> > > > the point of sufficiently grounded evidence as to what might be
> >> the
> >> > > > phylogenetic strands of development. This is quite difficult to
> >> > address
> >> > > > obviously. The vanguard of the proletariat lacks any meaning when
> >> one
> >> > > > can't really identify a proletariat. China inundates the world's
> >> > markets
> >> > > > with well-made and embarrrasingly inexpensive goods that
> undermine
> >> the
> >> > > > industrial working classes of Europe and America. We come back to
> >> > > > cultures--where do we find the universal basis? is there one?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hegel's unhappy slaves found the universal meaning through work
> >> which
> >> > > > was of course social activity. Perhaps the very course, as
> >> Ilyenkov
> >> > > > suggested, is something that's laid out there before us, that
> some
> >> > groups
> >> > > > of the larger society will instinctively understand in its
> >> teleology
> >> > just
> >> > > > by their position within the system.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > This all written in the old notion of xmca where half-baked ideas
> >> were
> >> > OK.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Paul Dillon
> >> > > >
> >> > > > __________________________________________________
> >> > > >Do You Yahoo!?
> >> > > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> > > >http://mail.yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com/>
> >> > > >_______________________________________________
> >> > > >xmca mailing list
> >> > > >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > > >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >
> >> > >Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
> >> AIM
> >> > >identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
> >> > >
> >> > >_______________________________________________
> >> > >xmca mailing list
> >> > >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > __________________________________________________
> >> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> >> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> > >http://mail.yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com/>
> >> > >_______________________________________________
> >> > >xmca mailing list
> >> > >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >
> >> > Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
> >> AIM
> >> > identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
> --
> Katarina A. Rodina
> MSc in Speech-Language Therapy,
> PhD-Research Fellow,
> Department of Special Needs Education
> University of Oslo
> P.O.Box 1140 Blindern
> NO-0318 OSLO,Norway
> Phone: +47 22 85 81 38
> Fax: +47 22 85 80 21
> E-mail: katarina.rodina@isp.uio.no
>
> Head of Russo-Norwegian Academic Cooperation,
> Herzen State Pedagogical University
> St.Petersburg, Russia
> E-mail: ro-dina@mail.ru
> tlf: +47 41 108 408
> http://www.herzen.spb.ru
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Jan 03 2007 - 07:06:18 PST