Zoltan-- I agree strongly wit the general tenor of your thinking. In
particular, the ACCESSIBLE data shfit qualitatively as time scales broaden.
I believe there are an
exiting set of data that link the strategy of the Developmental Workresarch
Lab (method
of dual stimulation) and the data concerning creation of new forms of
activity that are then studied and participated in over time. What might be
some other candidate projects where
the issue of methodology can be carried out on a coordiated, conceptual
basis. THAT
would be intersting!!
mike
On 12/15/06, Bodrozic <bodrozic@web.de> wrote:
>
> Dear Mike and all,
>
> if I understood Paul Dillon right he sees Paolo Freire's work as an
> example of versions of adressing ZPD and emphasis the importance of
> including the historical dimension (of larger systems) in analyses. I agree
> with Paul concerning the importance of the historical dimension and the
> work of Iljenkov in this context. However, I see the problem of getting
> data about the historic-genetic development of more extensive systems
> (enough to risk an interpretation of an hypothetical zoped). I do not mean
> to argue in favor of postivism (or psychological laboratory exeperiments or
> something similar). But I do think that an historical-genetic analysis on
> the cultural historical level has to be based on sufficicent (if possible
> historical and empirical) data.
> What "sufficient" means depends quite a lot on the object of reserach and
> the systems related to the object of reserach.
>
> I see a danger if one bases conclusions about hypothetical zopeds not
> enough on empirical and historical data: The german critical psychologists
> (such as Klaus Holzkamp) who discussed long term historic-genetic analyses
> in their studies were often accused of being "ideological". I find the
> tradition of Holzkamp very intersting and disagree with quite a lot of these
> critics, but I see the problem that Holzkamp and his colleagues work were
> partly not enough based on (empirical and historical) data and therefore
> opened the door for such critics.
> I think the Finns found a way to base conclusions about activity systems
> on empirical and historical data. Their work might be a very useful basis
> for rethinking the analysis of the historic-genetic development of more
> extensive systems and developments (enough to risk an interpretation of an
> hypothetical zoped).
>
> Regards
> Zlatko
>
>
>
> Mike Cole schrieb:
>
> Zlatko:
>
> Your wrote: it might be fruitful, to discuss hyothetical zopeds of systems
> (such as activity systems or even systems of more extensive scope) that are
> grounded in emprirical or historical data.
>
> I agree that analysis at the level of activity systems is one way to go.
> This is, in effect, what I have done with my work on building 5th Dimensions
> and studying their change over time. This is what Yrjo does in a different
> way with use of Change Lab. But this is NOT
> on the scale being discussed by Paul, for example.
>
> mike
>
> On 12/13/06, Bodrozic <bodrozic@web.de> wrote:
> >
> > I think that it depends quite a lot on your object of research, whether
> > searching for a - hypthetical - Zoped on the Cultural Historical level
> > is useful or not.
> > While "ideological setting" such as the "proletariat is per definitionem
> >
> > the subject of new kind of practice" might be less useful, it might be
> > fruitful, to discuss
> > hyothetical zopeds of systems (such as activity systems or even systems
> > of more extensive scope) that are grounded in emprirical or historical
> > data.
> > In the the time of the IT revolution new models of different activities
> > are emerging, and I think the Zoped concept might be appropriate to
> > adress them.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Zlatko Bodrozic
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Cole schrieb:
> >
> > > Yes, this seems a plausible way to go. But it is difficult to think of
> > > the
> > > dominator
> > > as "more developed" is so many ways (ditto adult/child was an issue I
> > was
> > > trying to
> > > raise, but lets assume that parents know best if you like for purposes
> > of
> > > discussion)
> > > that I recoil often at the thought.
> > >
> > > In our 1984 article on zopeds peg griffin and I pointed out, echoing
> > > Carol
> > > Emerson
> > > writing about Bakhtin and LSV, that a zoped can be usefully be thought
> > > of as
> > > a conversation with the future and that as such, the adult current
> > > level of
> > > development does not provide an exhaustive teleology/end point of the
> > > child's development.
> > >
> > > I see no easy resolutions here (how could there be, this group cannot
> > > agree
> > > that any
> > > putative example of a zoped is in fact an example!), but the issues
> > are
> > > worth thinking,
> > > re-thinking, re-re-thinking, etc.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On 12/11/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Mike, surely the essential thing about ontogenetic development which
> > >> differs from historical development is that in ontogeny the subject
> > is
> > >> growing into an existing dominant culture and activity system,
> > >> whereas in
> > >> history (and evolution) the subject is pulling itself up by its
> > >> bootstraps,
> > >> except for various kinds of cultural domination, colonialism, etc.
> > >> where a
> > >> dominant subject forces the development of a dominated subject. So if
> > we
> > >> see ZPD as essentially existing in the relation between more and less
> >
> > >> capable subjects, then the only way we can see it in history is via
> > >> domination. Some would argue that domination of one subject by
> > >> another is
> > >> in fact the norm, not the exception, in history: war, conquest,
> > >> colonisation, enslavement, take-over, .... This is what Hegel's famed
> > >> master-slave dialectic is about, the same dialectic which deals with
> > the
> > >> emergence of rational thought (theory and practice, scientific
> > concepts,
> > >> etc.) from non-literate life (for want of a better word). Hegel's
> > >> dialectic of the relations between dominant and dominated subjects is
> > >> never
> > >> (so far as I know) conceived as that of learner-teacher ... an
> > >> interesting
> > >> thought though ...
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >> At 01:19 PM 10/12/2006 -0800, you wrote:
> > >> >A while back Paul inquired into the issue of zone's of proximal
> > >> development
> > >> >at the cultural
> > >> >historical level of analysis. I pointed to Yrjo's work in Learning
> > by
> > >> >Expanding, but Paul has
> > >> >in mind far wider swatches of time.
> > >> >
> > >> >In Yrjo's case, in some sense, a generalization of the method of
> > dual
> > >> >stimulation implemented
> > >> >as cultural practices by a self-conscious group is the mechanism for
> >
> > >> >"changing oneself by
> > >> >changing one's history" (where self may refer to Huck Finn or the
> > >> Finnish
> > >> 7
> > >> >brothers or a group
> > >> >of workers in some Finnish industry). I like the work a lot, but I
> > >> agree
> > >> >with Paul that it does not
> > >> >answer to the question of Zopeds at the cultural historical level
> > >> >adequately.
> > >> >
> > >> >The problem, for me, is that I am unsure that it is appropriate to
> > seek
> > >> any
> > >> >such mechanism of
> > >> >cultural historical change. A zoped, in my ( ipso facto flawed,
> > >> mistaken,
> > >> >and misguided understanding!)
> > >> >is constituted in joint of activity of people with different
> > resources
> > >> >(knowledge, experience, courage.......)
> > >> >for accomplishing a culturally valued task. In Vygotsky's rendering,
> > >> >provided in the context of
> > >> >psychological testing and pedagogical practice, the persona involved
> >
> > >> are
> > >> a
> > >> >more and less capable
> > >> >person, sometimes referred to as more and less capable peers.
> > >> >
> > >> >The difficulty at the cultural-historical level that bothers me is
> > that
> > >> it
> > >> >is even more difficult than in the
> > >> >ontogenetic case to figure out who the more capable person/social
> > group
> > >> >might be. For sure versions
> > >> >of this idea that invoke some version of the "vanguard of the
> > >> proletariat"
> > >> >and associate notions of
> > >> >false consciousness I experienced during the 20th century, did not
> > >> impress
> > >> >me as a useful
> > >> >means for the development of humanity.
> > >> >
> > >> >I should add that I also believe that uncritical evaluations of who
> > the
> > >> more
> > >> >capable person is in the
> > >> >ontogentic literature ought to be viewed sceptically, or at least
> > >> bracketed.
> > >> >In some cases (luria
> > >> >seeking to help Zasetsky recover his blown-away intellectual
> > >> functions so
> > >> >that he can read and write
> > >> >and live in his home town) the amazing zopeds Luria created seem
> > >> >unproblematic ethically in terms
> > >> >of almost anyone's view. In a lot of other cases I am less sure.
> > Yrjo's
> > >> >critique of unproblematic
> > >> >"vertical developmentalism" in his "breaking away" article
> > >> highlights the
> > >> >dark side of educator's
> > >> >good intentions even when they are, in some sense good, never mind
> > the
> > >> cases
> > >> >in which psychopaths
> > >> >are in charge of the classroom or the clinic.
> > >> >
> > >> >But the question at the cultural-historical level remains in several
> > >> >versions.
> > >> >
> > >> >I am assuming that at the phylogenetic level no one wishes to claim
> > >> that
> > >> >there is any question of
> > >> >the kind of teleology involved in issues surrounding the notion of
> > >> zoped
> > >> >within a CHAT perspective,
> > >> >but this view is clearly in a tiny minority when viewed within the
> > >> >contemporary ideological landscape.
> > >> >mike
> > >> >_______________________________________________
> > >> >xmca mailing list
> > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
> > >> AIM
> > >> identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
> > >>
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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