Thanks Sonja! Will we see you on Friday nite? Bring the whole family.
deb
On 12/11/06, Sonja Baumer <sbaumer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> HI,
> There seems to be a relevant paper by B. Schwartz and his colleagues,
> featuring an experimental study, in which they compare dyads of
> students solving mathematical problems. The findings show the
> contrast between the pairs of students with equal level of expertise
> (in previous testing both students failed to a similar solve problem)
> and the pairs of students where one member was "a more capable peer"
> (see the abstract:
> http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S1532690XCI1804_2)
> They found that the the pairs of students with equal (i.e., low)
> level of expertise were more successful in arguing and solving
> mathematic problems than students working in dyads with a more
> competent peer.
> Their findings are consistent with Y. Engestrom's (2000) idea of
> "expansive learning" which "involves horizontal widening of
> collective expertise by means of debating, negotiating and hybridizing
> different perspectives and conceptualizations".
> I agree with Mike that ZOPEDs are open systems in which knowledge is
> constructed collaboratively, " where culture and cognition meet to
> construct each other" (Cole, 1996). Indeed people often learn from
> those who know better, younger sibling from the older, apprentice from
> master, student from teacher. However, insistence on the difference
> in the level of expertise as "sine qua non" of ZOPED may imply
> unidirectionality, i.e., that only the less capable learns, and
> thus is compatible with the "transmission of knowledge" approach to
> learning and development .
>
> Sonja Baumer
>
>
>
> On 12/11/06, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There is a large literature on zopeds and evaluation. A very complicated
> > topic.
> > Ann Brown worried about this topics starting in early 1980's. The
> problem,
> > logically speaking, is that zopeds are open systems. Artificially
> closing
> > them
> > with "levels of help"/"scaffolding" makes a link to standardized
> evaluation
> > but destroys
> > the essential properties of a zoped.
> > mike
> >
> > On 12/11/06, deborah downing-wilson <ddowningw@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > hmmm. it seems to me that in teaching or demonstrating a skill we
> perform
> > > the skill in as close to the ideal form as we are able, and as this
> > > teaching
> > > episode is also an incidence of practice we can assume that the
> teacher's
> > > skill level improves during the interaction. I'm not sure about the
> > > deeper
> > > understanding, one can hope for the compassion and empathy,
> frustration
> > > and
> > > impatience certainly.
> > >
> > > On 12/11/06, Ana Guenthner <anaguenthner@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In response to Shirley and Deb's thoughts, to assume that the more
> > > > dominant
> > > > learner in a group zpd tends to lead to deeper understanding would
> be
> > > > overrating the learner. I tend to wonder if deeper understanding
> would
> > > be
> > > > in the learners reflections towards compassion and empathy rather
> than
> > > > content.
> > > >
> > > > The notion of assuming that the more capable learner performs "at a
> > > level
> > > > above what they are capable of outside the ZPD " as a general
> statement
> > > > somehow does not sit well with my thinking. Considering the cultural
> > > > historical aspect of a teacher not knowing the danger of simplifying
> and
> > > > deciding on the individual/group more capable and least capable
> based on
> > > > an
> > > > inferior design of assessments.
> > > >
> > > > The hot topic seems to be in the design of assessments at
> the moment.
> > > Any
> > > > views out there on the cultural historical impact on zoped and
> > > > assessments?
> > > > Would appreciate a lead.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 12/11/06, Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> You are so right, Deb.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> It is a very positive argument for mixed ability teaching and
> > > > learning.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> My kids were taught is mixed ability classrooms (sadly now in
> the
> > > > > >> decline in the UK) and benefited enormously by helping their
> weaker
> > > > > >> mates . The act of simplification must involve more complex
> > > thinking.
> > > > > >> As a special needs teacher I know how challenging
> simplification
> > > is!
> > > > > >> I have always thought this had led these 'more competent peers'
> to
> > > > > >> greater , deeper understandings. It is something we frequently
> > > > > >> discuss in my teaching seminars.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Like Deb, I would love some other references to this.
> > > > > >> Shirley
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On 10 Dec 2006, at 23:55, deborah downing-wilson wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> A question that comes to me occasionally - but never when I'm
> > > near
> > > > > >>> someone
> > > > > >>> to ask-
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> It seems to me that the "more capable" member of the ZPD, by
> > > nature
> > > > > >>> of the
> > > > > >>> interaction also performs at a level above what they are
> capable
> > > of
> > > > > >>> outside
> > > > > >>> the ZPD -
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> deb
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> On 12/10/06, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > .
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> The difficulty at the cultural-historical level that bothers
> me
> > > is
> > > > > >>>> that it is even more difficult than in the
> > > > > >>>> ontogenetic case to figure out who the more capable
> person/social
> > > > > >>>> group
> > > > > >>>> might be.
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Deborah Downing-Wilson
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> >
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-- Deborah Downing-Wilson _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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