David, Eric, Andy,
Without entering into issues of collective oppression and its recognition, at the individual level isn't a classic case of failure to recognize oppression provided by the battered woman who blames herself for her partner's violence? How far can one go with Blake's infernal proverb that one law for the lion and the ox is oppression?
Paul Dillon
David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
> Yes, David sometimes in life people misperceive their condition.
Ahhh, so the listing man has succumbed to regimes of truth as socially
orchestrated through the professional authority of the clinician. I'm glad
we agree on that!
David
PS. The point is worth arguing, but I guess I should fess up to the example
as having caught my attention more than the principle.
ERIC.RAMBERG who-is-at spps
.org To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Sent by:
xmca-bounces who-is-at webe cc: (bcc: David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
r.ucsd.edu Subject: [xmca] percertions
12/05/2006 09:41
AM
Please respond to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
Hello David:
Dr. Oliver Sacks has a fabulous book out describing clinical tales
entitled, "The man who mistook his wife for a hat and other clinical
tales." In the tradition of Luria it discusses the romatic science. In
one of these tales he tells of a man who walks with a list so bad that it
appears he could topple over at any time. The strange part of this man's
affliction is that he does not perceive the list! Dr. Sacks proceeds to
videotape the man and play back the video so he can see how crooked he is
when he walks. The man is astonished at what he sees on the video. Yes,
David sometimes in life people misperceive their condition.
eric
David H Kirshner
To: "eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity"
Sent by: cc:
xmca-bounces who-is-at web Subject: Re: [xmca] can't
have it both ways
er.ucsd.edu
12/05/2006 09:09
AM
Please respond
to "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
Activity"
Eric,
Good to know you have the God's-eye-view to determine when a perception is
a misperception.
David
ERIC.RAMBERG who-is-at spps
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Culture, Activity"
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have it both ways
12/05/2006 08:48
AM
Please respond to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
Andy:
I apologize for misunderstanding your stance on mediated development.
My point was regarding a person that MISPERCEIVES being oppressed. This
misperception of being oppressed is what is causing the growing trend of
'victims' in US cities. People who currently live in the Gaza strip are
oppressed! Certainly much more so then any resident of a US city.
eric
Andy Blunden
et> cc:
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er.ucsd.edu
12/04/2006 02:57
PM
Please respond
to "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
Activity"
Mmmm. Obviously lots of cross-purposes communication going on here Eric.
You mentioned "the vastly growing 'victim' class of urban residents in
america," and now point out that life in any US city is better than the
Warsaw Ghetto or the Gaza Strip. What is your point?
I certainly don't "want to disregard any studies that place empirical
evidence for the zone of proximal development." Perhaps that was someone
else? I certainly do believe that development is a mediated process.
Andy
At 09:12 AM 4/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>Andy:
>
>You mention references I am unfamiliar with. I am not naive enough to
>assume since one person can achieve success regardless of circumstance
then
>it makes the case for all in the same circumstance. I certainly do not
>want to justify horrendous abuses but I also do not believe what exists in
>any area of the US to be horrendous. Warsaw of WW2 or the gaza strip
>certainly deserve that classification!
>
>My point was that you want to disregard any studies that place empirical
>evidence for the zone of proximal development yet you want to then claim
>poverty or oppresive conditions mediate a person's development. Which one
>is it Andy, is there a mediation of a person's development or is there
not.
>
>eric
>
>
>
>
> Andy
> Blunden
>
>
> et> cc:
>
> Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] can't
> have it both ways
> xmca-bounces who-is-at web
>
> er.ucsd.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> 12/01/2006
> 03:50
>
> PM
>
> Please
> respond
>
> to
> "eXtended
>
> Mind,
> Culture,
>
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Eric, I think you are agreeing with people like Frank Furedi, Charles
>Taylor and Robert Hughes, who see people who identify themselves as
victims
>
>of some kind of injustice (e.g. feminists or antidiscriminationists) as
>actively adopting a victim-identity and thereby actually reinforcing their
>own suffering so in fact being the cause of their own suffering. Yes?
>You reject the fact that (for example) a poor ghetto resident is oppressed
>and believe that the fact that many who leave the ghetto and make good
>proves your point. Yes?
>Well, I think you're wrong. It is true that making a claim to having been
>treated unjustly does not ipso facto make your claim valid. So it is
>necessary to have some way of figuring out whether such claims are
>justified. I really don't think your criterion, of asking whether there
>exist people who escape from the condition of injustice, stands up to a
>cursory glance. It would justify the most horrendous abuses. Perhaps you
>argue that even though (for example) a ghetto-dweller is oppressed, they
>would be better advised to find an individual solution to their injustice
>and move house, rather than try to do something about poverty and
>discrimination. You are welcome to your view, but I think it misses the
>point. A read of Jane Jacobs' "Death and Life of Great American Cities" is
>always worthwhile; Jacobs show that people who are poor and powerless for
>other reasons end up having to live in a ghetto (where they suffer from
>further disadvantage resulting from place), and stay there only so long as
>they are poor and powerless.
>
>In relation to your second paragraph about mediation, you seem to be
>claiming that poverty and suffering is unmediated, i.e., it is not someone
>else's fault but your own. Yes? So you are putting a radical individualist
>position: the black man given the chair for a crime he did not commit is
>responsible for his own fate; if he had pulled himself up by his
bootstraps
>
>and got an education and a good job, he could have afforded a good lawyer.
>There are many problems with this position. But I doubt that I can
persuade
>
>you out of radical individualism in psychology at this late stage.
>
>Andy
>
>At 09:38 AM 1/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
> >What if a person misperceives being oppressed? Such as the vastly
growing
> >"victim" class of urban residents in america. There is clearly a
> >misperception on their part that they are being oppressed. Choices in
> >their life have placed them in a position of feeling and acting
oppressed
> >yet numerous people who grow up in the same environment leave the "hood"
> >behind and make a great life for themselves.
> >
> >Are you merely stating a rhetorical question regarding oppression being
> >mediated and do not believe this to be the case? I truely am confused
by
> >your argument. You have taken a circuitous route of dismissing dualism
>yet
> >you use dualism to make your point.
> >
> >eric
>
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Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435, AIM
identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
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