Paul wrote, in part, according to babble fish:
On 10/27/06, Paul Dillon <phd_crit_think@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Mike, et al.
>
> One begins to understand the mania of the logical positivists, especially
> Carnap, for an absolutely logical language. But the fact is that real
> language is part of history/culture and is therefore particular, although el
> genero humano universal ya comienza a desplegarse por la technologia en esta
> edad de la transicion al socialismo,
>
> Nevertheless, it seems that there is a range between poetry and prose and
> cooking recipes, for example. Lawrence Ferlinghetti made a pithy
> observation about translations, beauty and faithfulness that I won't repeat
> hear for fear of being slammed by the pc POLICE.
>
> But Isn't what we do when talking about CHAT much closer to cooking
> recipes than poetry? And although when we write something that is meant to
> stand the test of time, unlike these posts to xmca, we want it to be as
> beautifully written as possible, how many really attempt that in these
> posts.
>
> But the ease of expression one feels in a lanugage that they know well
> either from having been born with it or having lived using it for years is
> important to take into account. People should be free to express themselves
> within their best medium and that isn't necesarrily restricted to one
> language, and languages change, the way people speak Spanish in Ayacucho or
> the way I remember hearing black English in Selma Alabama are far cries from
> standards -- is it possible to discuss CHAT theory in these languages?? .
>
> Furthermore, ones identity is closely bound to the language they speak and
> this can change. I remember how, when I returned to the US from one long
> period of residence in Peru, how I would slip into Spanish while talking to
> my mom, and only from the odd look she was giving me would I realize that I
> wasn't talking to her in English. I think that's an extreme form of culture
> shock, which is a term applied to the experience of returning to one's natal
> culture after having become acculturated to another (unlike what most people
> believe it to be, al reves). So for the benefit of those who feel
> intimidated to write in English, let's encourage them to write in whatever
> language they feel freest in, and let those who don't know that language do
> the Babelfish for themselves. Why perpetuate what Samir Amin called
> "Unequal Exchange"?
>
> But I'm still not convinced by Babelfish and am writing this in English
> since it's going on that way, but let's say, YES to real diversity, forget
> that the tower crashed to the ground and just tell everyone to write in
> whatever language they feel most appropriate to their ability to express and
> the audience they wish to address.
>
> Pero si podemos buscar la forma de traducir los textos y llevar a cabo
> nuestos conversatorios para ampliar los horizontes de la comunidad y romper
> la division de los lenguajes, no es cierto?
>
> Paul Dillon
>
> *Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I am not sure that I understand what people discussing this thread have
> written in English,
> never mind babblefish!!
>
> Paul has nicely demonstrated how it is possible to use babblefish to give
> non-Spanish
> readers some access to what is being discussed and Ana has pointed to the
> fact that
> where anyone who feels the urge can ask for help and clarification. In my
> experience, such
> an exercise requires about 30 secs of time.
>
> Is a total "perfect" translation EVER possible (as the Italians question)?
> I
> sincerely
> doubt it in principle, but the problem is ESPECIALLY acute in academic
> discourse with little face to face constraint on
> interpretation (in other contexts one can come a lot closer).
>
> Is it worthwhile for us? I found babblefish translations of recent posts
> in
> spanish very helpful
> but of course missed much of the intended meaning. But when has that not
> been true??
> mike
>
> On 10/27/06, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote:
> >
> > Paul and everyone,
> > Although it does sometimes feel frustrating that many more people speak
> > English (on this list) than any other language, I think that
> > historically there always existed a "Lingua Franca" -- a common language
> > in which people of all different national languages still could
> > communicate. For Science and Philosophy it used to be Latin for many
> > many centuries. Nowadays English is one of these common languages.
> > I have never really felt squashed by not being able to express my
> > thoughts in Serbo-Croatian -- although there were times when I had to
> > make a special effort to express what I could easily do in Serbian. I
> > also speak German and French and a bit of Russian, and I know, like
> > Michael (Roth) how nuances can get lost in translation. But on the other
> > hand, I feel rich for being able to speak more than one language. I
> > don't think that there is ever a possibility for "complete" translation.
> > But, imagine! We sit on all these far away points of this planet and we
> > chat (pun intended) together, and by doing that we are building a new
> > community with its own meanings. And when we do not have quite a good
> > vocabulary in English, we can add a Russian word ("perezhivanye") or a
> > Spanish word (you tell me), or maybe a whole expression in another
> > language, and we can start using any terminology we need to understand
> > each other better, just like it has been done in all the times.
> > Languages are plastic and adjustable, and if we have so much to share,
> > we will find the way.
> > Also, we can always serve as teachers to each other and help everyone
> > learn (or at least get a sense of ) what do we loose by not reading
> > Vygotsky/Luria/Leontiev/Davidov etc in Russian, what by not reading
> > Marx, Hegel, Heidegger or Lewin in German, what by not reading Derrida
> > and so many others in French, etc. ...
> > Knowing many languages is a great asset, and no one should feel
> > oppressed by any one of the languages they know. The only oppression is
> > if you know only one language -- that is a loss...
> > I love reading Spanish if I also have a translation into English next to
> > it. That also lets me learn Spanish a little better than I can
> > understand it now.
> > Thank you all for that gift.
> > Ana (M-S)
> >
> > Paul Dillon wrote:
> > > Nacho,
> > >
> > > No estoy de acuerdo en principio. Quiero reflexionar un poco para
> > mejor comunicar mi posicion mas tarde. Pero en breve, mis objeciones
> tienen
> > que ver con el marco historico en el cual todo el proceso de aprendizaje
> > tiene lugar y la necesidad de apoderamiento. En los discursos del CHAT
> se
> > acostumbran a ver procesos historicos de corto plazo a pesar de que es
> una
> > teoria que nacio y todavia tiene raices en una teoria de cambio
> historico a
> > largo plazo. En donde se debe enfrentar esas contradicciones del tercer
> > nivel de largo plazo? La cuestion de cortesia no me parece relevante si
> se
> > trata de apoderar quienes han sido aplastado por la sociedad cuya lengua
> > oficial es el ingles. Despues tratare de formular estos apuntes en una
> > forma mas desarrollada.
> > >
> > > No obstante, quiero senalar la otra observacion que hice: si uno va a
> > traducir, no seria mas conveniente hacerlo despues de haber escrito todo
> en
> > un lenguaje?
> > >
> > > I disagree in principle. I want to think about it a little to
> > communicate about it later. But briefly, my objections have to do with
> the
> > historical framework in which the process of learning takes place and
> the
> > necessity for empowerment. En CHAT discourses it's commmon to look at
> sort
> > term historical processes even though it's a theoory that was born and
> > still has roots in a theory of long term historical change. Where should
> > the long-term tertiary contradictions be taken on? The question about
> > courtesy doesn't seem relevant when we're dealing with the empowerment
> > of those who have been squashed by the society whose official language
> is
> > English. Later I will try to formulate these points in a more developed
> > way.
> > >
> > > Nevertheless, I want to point out the other observation that I
> > made: if one is going to translate, wouldn't it be easier to do it after
> > having written everything in one language?
> > >
> > > Paul Dillon
> > >
> > > -- this is a babelfish translation of the Spanish message:
> > >
> > > I do not agree in principle. I want to reflect a little better to
> > communicate my position but late. But shortly, my objections have to do
> with
> > the historico frame in which all the process of learning takes place and
> the
> > empowering necessity. In the speeches of the CHAT they get used to
> seeing
> > historicos processes of short term although teoria is one that nacio and
> > todavia has root in one in the long term teoria of historico change. In
> > where one is due to face those contradictions of the third level of long
> > term? The courtesy question does not seem to me excellent if it is to
> > empower who have been squashed by the society whose official language is
> > ingles. Despues will try to formulate these notes in a developed form
> but.
> > However, I want to senalar the other observation that I did: if one is
> going
> > to translate, nonserious but advisable to make it despues of have
> written
> > everything in a language?
> > >
> > >
> > > -- this is a babelfish translation of the Spanish message: It would
> > be great if it worked but as you can see, it doesn't work very well at
> all,
> > better than nothing, but why should people who can read English but not
> > write it be forced to spend all their extra time translating for the
> benefit
> > of people who don't read Spanish???
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nacho Montero Garc�a-Celay wrote:
> > > Paul,
> > > I realize your point it's important. But I think of it as a matter of
> > > courtesy. The majority of XMCA's members are not able to read in
> > spanish,
> > > so let start with the main language.
> > > Entiendo la importancia de lo queplanteas pero yo me lo planteo como
> una
> > > cuesti�n de cortes�a. La mayor�a de los miembros de XMCA no pueden
> leer
> > en
> > > castellano, as� que prefiero empezar por el idioma de la mayor�a.
> > > Any way, your comment reminds me the idea that every single person has
> > to
> > > be able to use her maternal language for communication, for learning
> and
> > > for research. Nowadays, it is not possible among hispanic people at
> USA,
> > or
> > > aymara and quechua people, in Peu�, Chile or Bolivia (among others).
> > > En cualquier caso, tu comentario me recuerda que cualquier persona
> > deber�a
> > > poder usar su lengua materna para comunicarse, aprender e investigar.
> > Hoy
> > > d�a es algo que no es posible entre los hispanos en los Estados
> Unidos,
> > o
> > > entre los aymaras y quequa, en Per�, Chile o Bolivia.
> > > NACHO.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo!
> Small
> > Business.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.
> >
> > 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
> >
> > Philadelphia, PA 19144
> >
> > Home office: (215) 843-2909
> >
> > Mobile: (267) 334-2905
> >
> > ana@zmajcenter.org
> >
> > http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta>
>
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Nov 01 2006 - 01:00:15 PST