Hi Andy
Thanks for the refinement and "hedges". I think you can tell that we are
very patriotic here!
Carol
On 10/24/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> I did not want to imply that I endorsed Philipa's observations. I was
> struck by them mainly because they were novel to me, and I thought they
> had
> some merit. I should note as well that Philipa herself presented her
> observation with *extreme* caution and heavily hedged it around with
> qualification. I think the entire world has stood in admiration of the
> achievement of South African society in this process. But I guess there is
> no absolutely right answer when such crimes are committed.
> Best of luck to you Carol, and I do really hope that things get better
> some
> time soon.
> Andy
> At 02:09 PM 24/10/2006 +0200, you wrote:
> >Hi Andy
> >I would just like to respond to your remarks about the speaker on South
> >Africa. People were astonshed that we constituted a Truth and
> >Reconciliation Commission so soon after the end of Apartheid. (Austria
> took
> >40 years to do the same.) The director was Bishop Tutu, who kept the
> doors
> >eopn between people during the bad years. He had to listen to the most
> >terrible stories (along with the committee), and someotimes he couldn't
> bear
> >it and cried and cried. Needless to say, most of the victims cried a
> great
> >deal. Then there were the perpetrators some of whom came forward, and
> what
> >they had done was also terrible. I reckon we would have needed a decade
> to
> >get through all the hurt, but there was a cut off date, and several
> volumes
> >were developed and presented to Mandela.
> >
> >The new government did not address violence and criminality in the
> >townships, because they feared it would make them unpopular, and as a
> result
> >we have this terrible crime--800 murders reported in Johannesburg last
> >year and many thousands of violent break-ins, many car hijacks. So we
> live
> >with a different fear now. I have been the object of crime 5 times in the
> >last 12 years (5 times too many).
> >
> >I cannot begin to tell you though of the capacity of African people to
> >forgive. I think that is why apartheid lasted so long. I know in trauma
> >counselling you have to wait 3 days for the adrenaline to calm down a bit
> >(but it is still there for ages), but we are talking here about people
> >talking about political crimes perpetrated up to a decade ago. It wasn't
> >about "What happened to you last week". This T&R Commission was cathartic
> >for the whole nation, and I felt we were brave to mount it at all.
> >
> >That is my tuppence worth for someone who lived through apartheid and
> >beyond.
> >
> >Carol
> >
> >
> >On 10/23/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>A recent conference near Melbourne held by the Australia Society for
> >>Continental Philsoophy (mostly critical theorists) on "Trauma" dealt
> with
> >>forgiveness in a myriad of ways. Two of the speakers made points which I
> >>recall as I write:
> >>
> >>Agnes Heller spoke about shame, and the impossibility of a social
> movement
> >>built on shame. This relates of course to the inverse side, that of the
> >>one
> >>who needs forgiveness.
> >>
> >>Philipa Rothfield spoke on the oppressive effect of pressure on victims
> to
> >>forgive. She cited experiences in South Africa where the reconciliation
> >>process put great pressure on people to forgive. She made the point that
> >>not only were many not ready to forgive, but perhaps rightly so, since
> >>forgiveness and reconciliation could act as a cover for avoiding dealing
> >>with the real underlying problems, and in fact their continuation in new
> >>conditions.
> >>
> >>There were of course scores of presentations taking a number of
> different
> >>angles. These two I particularly remember.
> >>
> >>Andy
> >>
> >>
> >>http://www.deakin.edu.au/conferences/ascp06/New%20Folder/program.php
> >>At 09:06 PM 22/10/2006 -0700, you wrote:
> >> >OK-- So here is another topic. Any help out there greatly appreciated.
> >> >
> >> >In my household the topic of forgiveness is a burning issue. There are
> a
> >>lot
> >> >of sources.
> >> >
> >> >First, we have had a visit from a friend who has had a stroke and
> whose
> >> >husband has left her
> >> >and she is in deep pain.
> >> >
> >> >Second, we have been reading about the Amish parents in Pennsylvania
> who
> >>put
> >> >aside, so far as
> >> >we can tell, the unbelievable anger and pain they must have
> experienced,
> >>and
> >> >have forgiven the man
> >> >who killed their children, welcomed his wife into their community, and
> >> >(again, so far as we can tell,
> >> >for-given him his unforgivable (it would seem) trespasses.
> >> >
> >> >Third, there is fiction brewing locallly that involves a mother and
> >>daughter
> >> >who are in conflict where the
> >> >mother has transgressed the law seriously and the daughter is living
> with
> >> >the consequences.
> >> >
> >> >So what does anyone on this amazing list of people have to counsel us
> >>about
> >> >forgiveness, No eye for
> >> >a tooth. What makes it possible? Legitimate? Forgivable, to forgive
> >>someone
> >> >for causing unspeakable
> >> >pain?
> >> >
> >> >This is all at the more or less personal/interpersonal level. I am
> well
> >> >aware that there are macro versions of these
> >> >questions that deserve all the attention we can give them, but up
> close
> >>and
> >> >personal. --When is forgiveness possible
> >> >and forgivable?
> >> >
> >> >Help please
> >> >mike
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >xmca mailing list
> >> >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435, AIM
> >>identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
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> >>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >_______________________________________________
> >xmca mailing list
> >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435, AIM
> identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
>
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