Re: [xmca] Unbelievable - & Spanish

From: Ana Marjanovic-Shane (ana@zmajcenter.org)
Date: Mon Oct 23 2006 - 19:28:16 PDT


Michael, thanks!!
Ana

Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:
> Hi Ana, this one is a good one.
>
> Nancy, J.-L. (2000). Being singular plural. Stanford, CA: Stanford
> University Press.
>
> I actually show how this work is relevant in research on learning in a
> recent book:
>
> Roth, W.-M. (2006). Learning science: A singular plural perspective.
> Rotterdam: SensePublishers.
>
> :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On 23-Oct-06, at 3:04 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote:
>
> Michael,
> This is a very interesting point of view. I would like to learn more
> about Jean-Luc Nancy's philosophy. What of his numerous works is a
> good start to read (in English)?
> I am intrigued by the notion of "WITH" both differentiated and
> undifferentiated -- and how to imagine ti. From your addition to this,
> I can see that there is some similarity to GH Mead's ideas -- being
> touched and touching at the same time -- reminds me of the idea of
> being addressed by another and addressing the others and oneself. But
> I want more details. Send me a reference, please.
> Ana
>
>
> Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:
>> Ana,
>> all of this is about consciousness, so the split comes with
>> consciousness; but, as people like Jean-Luc Nancy show, there has to
>> be a WITH preceding this split so that it can occur in the first
>> place, but it is an undifferentiated WITH, which, when
>> differentiated, leads to the different individuals (subjects,
>> subjectivities) that constitute the collective and inter-subjectivity.
>> wmr
>>
>>
>> On 22-Oct-06, at 5:59 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sasha,
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> This singularity splits itself into the opposition of object oriented
>> activity as it is and reflexive or self directed activity which
>> mediates the
>> very object oriented activity starting from multicellular animals.
>> From this
>> point of view the human language is not something alien to the
>> human object
>> oriented activity (like conventional sign) but something basically
>> congeneric to it, a definite level of its own evolution.
>>
>> I would like to better understand this. How are multicellular animals
>> connected to the "split" between object oriented activity and self
>> directed reflective activity?? Actually, how do you see this split
>> occur phylogenetically and ontogenetically??
>>
>> On the other hand, I interpreted Vygotsky's view that language and
>> thought have two different roots and then at some point become
>> related -- as an illustration of the reorganization in the
>> relationships between different mental functions. That issue is not
>> the issue where I saw Vygotsky trying to break away from the
>> paradigms he himself criticized. What I had in mind is more the fact
>> that at some points it seems that LSV was trying to establish
>> universal stages of ontogenetic and also of cultural development,
>> while at the same time trying to balance differences between
>> different cultures and their idiosyncratic systems of cultural lore,
>> activities and ultimately psychological processes. So when we read
>> about "primitive" and "modern" or literate cultures, it looks like a
>> form of cultural centrism still pervaded LSV's (and Luria's) work,
>> while on the other hand there is an attempt to break out of that kind
>> of thinking.
>> Ana
>>
>>
>> Alexander Surmava wrote:
>>> Hi, Ana,
>>>
>>>
>>> You route: "I have the feeling that he is trying to break away from the
>>> paradigms he had criticized himself, but is not quite where he wants
>>> to be".
>>> I entirely agree with this statement.
>>>
>>> Moreover I can point mentioned problem of relation between language and
>>> thought as an example of such finding him "not quite where he wants
>>> to be".
>>> I mean that the very LSV's idea of independent routes of thought and
>>> language can be hardly estimated as dialectical but rather
>>> dualistic. The
>>> real dialectical relation can be founded only in case of splitting some
>>> singular basis into opposite contradictory halves. Thus in our case
>>> we will
>>> have the real dialectical relation between language and thought only
>>> in case
>>> if we are starting from the singularity of life (taking in its most
>>> elementary form as life relation of unicellular to its objective
>>> field).
>>>
>>> This singularity splits itself into the opposition of object oriented
>>> activity as it is and reflexive or self directed activity which
>>> mediates the
>>> very object oriented activity starting from multicellular animals.
>>> From this
>>> point of view the human language is not something alien to the human
>>> object
>>> oriented activity (like conventional sign) but something basically
>>> congeneric to it, a definite level of its own evolution.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile LSV starting from two independent roots tried to solve an
>>> insolvable task -- establish some "dialectical" relation between them.
>>>
>>> In one of his rather old articles Andy Blunden asserted:
>>>
>>> "Vygotsky observes that previous study of the thought-language
>>> relationship
>>> considered the genesis of each side of the relation in isolation and
>>> assumed
>>> that the relation between the two was invariable; or alternatively,
>>> mechanically identified the two. On the contrary, Vygotsky proposed the
>>> necessity of conceiving of the object of investigation as a unity of
>>> opposites and that the inherent genesis of the relation was at its very
>>> essence."
>>>
>>> This is true, to realize the dialectical approach one has to find in
>>> the
>>> reality (not only in own imagination) "a unity of opposites". But if
>>> according to LSV "In their ontogenetic development, thought and
>>> speech have
>>> different roots" the unity of such opposites will have arbitrary, not
>>> dialectical character. To be dialectical opposites the sides of our
>>> unity
>>> must have one and the same root.
>>>
>>> Thus LSV's attempt to set dialectic against metaphysics of his
>>> predecessors
>>> failed so that his reflections (at least in case of language and
>>> thought
>>> relation) entirely remain in dualistic trap.
>>> Surely all this can be relatively clear only from the position "on the
>>> shoulders" of Vygotsky, Leont'ev and especially Il'enkov.
>>>
>>> Sasha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
>>> Behalf Of Ana Marjanovic-Shane
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 2:15 AM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Unbelievable - & Spanish
>>>
>>>
>>> It does sound paradoxical, but in fact the word "language" does not
>>> mean
>>> the same in both statements from Derrida. The can both be true if we
>>> have different meanings for "language".
>>>
>>> As for whether LSV's thinking was fully or not fully dialectical, can
>>> you cans some references for the texts you are mentioning, Michael?
>>> What
>>> you said is interesting because I sometimes see Vygotsky's texts as
>>> totally dialectical and sometimes I have the feeling that he is trying
>>> to break away from the paradigms he had criticized himself, but is not
>>> quite where he wants to be. But I have not read anybody else's thoughts
>>> on that.
>>>
>>> Ana
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> In all your deliberations about (mono, bi-, multi-) lingualism,
>>>
>>>
>>>> consider the following incompossible, contradictory propositions that
>>>
>>>
>>>> are truly dialectical in their tenure and are sublated in actual human
>>>
>>>
>>>> praxis:
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 1. We only ever speak one language.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2. We never speak only one language.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> (Derrida, 1998, p. 7)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Derrida, J. (1998). Monolingualism of the Other; or, The prosthesis of
>>>
>>>
>>>> origin. Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> To anyone interested in a dialectical account that LSV never could
>>>
>>>
>>>> achieve because he was not fully thinking dialectically---according to
>>>
>>>
>>>> a number of texts I recently came across---I recommend this little
>>>
>>>
>>>> booklet very highly.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think we are allowed, and this is fully compatible with a
>>>
>>>
>>>> dialectical theory of science (see Il'enkov) to go beyond the giants
>>>
>>>
>>>> (i.e., LSV) on whose shoulders we stand.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 20-Oct-06, at 10:08 AM, nacho.montero@uam.es wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ok guys,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> let's go with bilingualism
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Vale,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> vamos con el bilinguismo
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> As a first time, I´m going to try with both languages at the same
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Como es la primera vez, voy a intentar usar las dos lenguas.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> My comment today is that it is very important to realize that a real
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> bilingualism should include scientific knowledge -whatever you want to
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> understand by this.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mi primer comentario es que considero muy importante darse cuenta de
>>>
>>>
>>>> que un
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> bilinguismo total debe incluir el conocimiento científico.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Last week, Olga Vazquez visited my University and made a presentation
>>>
>>>
>>>> on "La
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> clase mágica". One of the most relevant comments from the audience
>>>
>>>
>>>> -all of us
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> spanish researchers and undergradute students- was about the
>>>> assymetrical
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> bilingualism that we still perceived within that so interesting
>>>
>>>
>>>> experience
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> implemented by Olga and her collaborators.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> La semana pasada Olga Vazquez estuvo en mi Universidad presentando su
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> investigación en "La clase Mágica". El comentario más repetido por
>>>
>>>
>>>> parte de la
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> audiencia fue sobre nuestra percepción de que el bilinguismo implícito
>>>
>>>
>>>> en la
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> experiencia es todavía asimétrico.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> We expressed this idea in terms of a defense of Spanish as a scientic
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> language. But we also realized that it would be applied to other
>>>
>>>
>>>> languages and
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> we made a parallelism between the Mexican at the USA and the arabian
>>>
>>>
>>>> at Spain.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Expresamos esa idea como la necesidad de defender el español como
>>>
>>>
>>>> lenguaje
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> científico. Pero también éramos conscientes de que eso afecta al resto
>>>
>>>
>>>> de las
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> lenguas. Reflexionamos sobre la situación de los inmigrantes de origen
>>>
>>>
>>>> árabe
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> en ESpaña y establecíamos un cierto paralelismo con la situación de
>>>> los
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> inmigrantes de origen Mexicano (hispanos en general) implicados en la
>>>
>>>
>>>> Clase
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mágica.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> So I think is time to tackle the issue in XMCA, but I wonder if
>>>> Thought &
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Language is to long as a first attempt. We can go twofold. Just some
>>>
>>>
>>>> chapters
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> from T&L. Or just some chapters from M in S. I'll delighted any way.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Así que creo que ha llegado el momento de abordar este asunto dentro
>>>
>>>
>>>> de XMCA
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> pero creo que Pensamiento y Lenguaje puede resultad demasiado largo
>>>
>>>
>>>> para un
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> primer intento. Podemos empezar por algún capítulo aunque también
>>>> podemos
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> hacer lo mismo con "Mind in Society". Estaré encantado con cualquiera
>>>
>>>
>>>> de las
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> dos opciones.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> NACHO.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>> Rincon*:
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>> <<<<<<<<--------------
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.
>>
>> 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
>>
>> Philadelphia, PA 19144
>>
>> Home office: (215) 843-2909
>>
>> Mobile: (267) 334-2905
>>
>> ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>
>>
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>> <http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>
>>
>>
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>>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.
>
> 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19144
>
> Home office: (215) 843-2909
>
> Mobile: (267) 334-2905
>
> ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>
>
> http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane
> <http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>
>
>
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-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.

151 W. Tulpehocken St.

Philadelphia, PA 19144

Home office: (215) 843-2909

Mobile: (267) 334-2905

ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>

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