"m-hm" - coin a serbo-croatian phrase.
mike
On 8/27/06, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <ana@zmajcenter.org> wrote:
>
> Mike, Tony and all,
> I guess we need to enter an experiment! Tony refers to the last year's
> discussion that was following a real live course, if I am not wrong. The
> platform (technically speaking) was not the most comfortable for everyone at
> all times. I don't know of a platform which would be good for everyone. A
> wiki seems to be good -- for those who know how to use it, but it require a
> small training for those who don't know how to use it. Although I did not
> find it hard, It still may present some obstacles. I am trying to work on
> two projects through a wiki -- as a means of remote integration of ides and
> a depository of common materials. So far, I am the only one who "dares" to
> use it for editing. The collaborators seem to be eager "readers".
>
> On the silence:
> It would be nice if all the people who read this NOW, sent just a nod, a
> "M-hm!" a kind of acknowledgment that they hear. That would mimic a
> face-to-face conversation, in which a speaker may be encouraged or
> discouraged to take up a course of thought depending on the nods, looks and
> other manifestations of dialogicity. We do not have to say anything specific
> to be a part of a conversation. Saying something specific may be in many
> cases difficult because of the language barrier (really not to be
> underestimated!!), but in other cases the difficulty is also a product of
> the medium: writing rather than speaking. e-mail is somewhere in between,
> yet, still a writing rather than sounding.
>
> Finally, I am really interested to know more about the writings of
> Bronckart, Clot, Dolz and others mentioned by Fernanda Liberali. And how do
> they relate to Vygotsky, Holliday, Hasan and other theories of "langagière,
> textes et discours".
> Ana
>
> Mike Cole wrote:
>
> Tony and Ana-- What this situation calls for is collective will! There are
>
> many
> ways. I would hesitate to go to a wiki platform having watched many
> colleagues
> crash there, what the heck, if someone (Tony?) sets it up for us and
> people
> find it
> useful, fine.
>
> Translate every message? XMCA has babblefish on it and there may well be
> better
> programs. Any got grad students who need to know a second language?
> (Oooops,
> I mean, "for whom demonstrating knowledge a second language is required
> for
> getting a phd"?) I had to learn two, but zero appears the current norm.
>
> If you merely glance at the world map at the lchc or xmca home pages all
> lit
> up with
> people logging in from all over the world it is clear that knowledge
> needed
> resides
> in this community-of-(mal?)practice. But if you read what people from all
> those
> place write, silence will serve us just fine.
>
> Whither, with a whisper, do we goeth?
> :-)
> mike
>
> On 8/27/06, Tony Whitson <twhitson@udel.edu> <twhitson@udel.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Ana,
> Your points are both profound and practical.
> Everybody,
> I think this calls for a wiki platform, where each language version of
> any text can be continually improved and discussed by a number of
> participlants. In some cases, a participant will make revisions that are
> simply an improvement on the translation. In other cases alternatives can
> be put forward that raise questions about different ways of understanding
> the substance. All past versions are always available, and there can be a
> discussion page linked to the document page for discussing substantive as
> well as linguistic issues.
> There are lots of software platforms that could handle such a wiki. I
> think there was a discussion last year, however, on several interesting
> texts that I never was able to get in on. I think Mike sent me a password
> but it didn't work, and a few times I went on unendingly circular quests
> in which at some point or another the machine in San Diego told me where
> to click to get a password, but when I clicked it asked me for my
> password.
>
> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> > I think you have a great point here, being one of those whose native
> language
> > is other than English. At the moment I am struggling with a review of an
>
> > article for a journal. The article was written in Portuguese and
> translated
> > into English -- the translation is BAD. But I am not sure, as I am
> reading it
> > if I do not understand what the author wants to convey because the
> > translation is bad, because the author's ideas are not clear or because
> what
> > the author wants to say can ONLY be said in Portuguese -- i.e. how much
> of
> > the cultural context I am missing? Are some of the concepts s/he uses
> > completely non-transparent for me the consequence of the missing
> cultural
> > context?
> > And that is precisely the fear of a non-native speaker: "Am I going to
> be so
> > misunderstood, that my thoughts in another language seem stupid?"
> > On the other hand -- having two or more languages at a disposal, making
> an
> > effort to understand them and to express oneself in the others -- makes
> for a
> > great intellectual grindstone. One has to bear with the process though
> -- it
> > is slower, but probably yields a better result at the end.
> >
> > I am all for your idea to get some of these texts in the original
> French, and
> > then to have them roughly translated (by a computer) into English, and
> then
> > to start a discussion using all the relevant languages. However -- we
> would
> > all need to have a two way or three way translation of the discussion
> texts
> > too! In order to construct something like that together -- a
> multilingual
> > discussion with a construction of new concepts or at least with mutual
> > understanding of the concepts -- we need someone to quickly translate
> every
> > posting (or at a request) into English/Spanish/French (and maybe more
> > languages...) Does it seem like very difficult?? Probably. But maybe we
> can
> > have a very small beginning if someone volunteers to do translations of
> the
> > discussion as it is unfolding.
> >
> > (Sending this again with a fear that I sound too non-English to you)
> > Ana
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Cole wrote:
> >> Thanks very much, Fernanda.
> >> Your selections raise an interesting issue about language, e.g., the
> >> general
> >> ignorance of languages other than English among
> >> American academics.
> >>
> >> I raised this issue with my colleagues in Chile last December and I
> >> thought
> >> that we had an agreement for them to select a text
> >> that was in both Spanish and English and that they would be discussion
> >> leaders, writing in the language they felt most comfortable
> >> using, e.g. Spanish. This seemed important to me because in general I
> >> think
> >> that members of XMCA underestimate the communicative
> >> handcap of our members living in non-English speaking countries...
> Often
> >> such people can read English well but have difficulty
> >> writing it, and they feel that their ideas will not be valued owing to
> the
> >> inelegance of their English. So, putting the shoe on the
> >> other foot (so to speak) seemed like it would be useful.
> >>
> >> Using myself as a yardstick (old and unreliable!) my ability to read
> >> French
> >> is not good, having been displaced by Russian, and
> >> my ability to read spanish is little better, having been acquired only
> >> informally. But it may well be that we have enough French
> >> readers who can write English to lend a hand, or that (for example) we
> >> could
> >> get a couple of the papers (not whole books!)
> >> translated so that those who would be totally left out could at least
> read
> >> and struggle with notes about the texts in French.
> >>
> >> Another possibility would be to run an entire text through a computer
> >> translation. This will produce a semi-interpretable text but
> >> if the topic is familiar (e.g., Vygotsky, Bakhtin) readers like me
> might
> >> recover a lot of French and be able to participate while
> >> we had a strong French voice guiding the discussion.
> >>
> >> There are other variations. We could simply retreat from the issue and
> >> read
> >> the one article, by Clot, that is in English.
> >> Lets see what others think. I prefer the bilingual approach personally,
>
> >> but
> >> if it is only a stunt, there is probably no point
> >> to it.
> >>
> >> A bientot!
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On 8/27/06, Fernanda Liberali <liberali@uol.com.br><liberali@uol.com.br>wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Here are some of them. I marked the ones I prefer. I am very
> interested
> >>> in the role of argumentation as an instrument. Because I am an
> applied
> >>> linguist, this is a big issue, mainly, if one considers Benveniste's
> >>> concern against the role of language as an instrument.
> >>> Fernanda
> >>> *List*
> >>>
> >>> Bronckart, J.P. 1993. *Action Theory and the analysis of action in
> >>> education.* Paper presented at the 5th European Association for
> Research
> >>> on Learning and Instruction.
> >>>
> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (1997). *Activité langagière, textes et discours.
> Pour
> >>> un
> >>> interactionisme socio-discursif*. Paris : Delachaux & Niestlé.
> >>>
> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002a). La explicación en psicología ante el desafío
>
> >>> del
> >>> significado. *Estudios de Psicología, 23 (3)*, 387-416.
> >>>
> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002b). La culture, sémantique du social formatrice
> de
> >>> la personne. In F. Rastier & S. Bouquet (Ed.), *Une introduction aux
> >>> sciences de la culture* (pp. 175-201). Paris : P.U.F.
> >>>
> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2004). Pourquoi et comment analyser l'agir verbal et
>
> >>> non
> >>> verbal en situation de travail ? In : J.-P. Bronckart & Groupe LAF
> >>> (Ed.),
> >>> *L'analyse de l'agir et des discours dans trois situations de
> travail*.
> >>> Cahiers de la Section des Sciences de l'Education, xxxxxxxxxxxx.
> >>>
> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. & Groupe LAF (2004). *L'analyse de l'agir et des
> >>> discours
> >>> dans trois situations de travail*. Cahiers de la Section des Sciences
> de
> >>> l'Education, xxxxxxxxxxxx.
> >>>
> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002). La conscience comme " analyseur " des
> >>> épistémologies de Vygotski et Piaget. In Y. Clot (Dir.) *Avec
> Vygotski*,
> >>> 17-43.
> >>>
> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2001). S'entendre pour agir et agir pour s'entendre.
>
> >>> In
> >>> J. M. Baudouin & J. Friedrich (Eds), *Théories de l'action et
> >>> éducation*,
> >>> 133-154. Bruxelles : De Boeck Université.
> >>>
> >>> Clot, Y. (1999 a). I. Oddone, les instruments de l'action.
> *Territoires
> >>> du
> >>> travail*, *3*, 12-25.
> >>>
> >>> Clot, Y. (2002). De Vygotski à Léontiev via Bakhtine. In Y. Clot
> (Dir.)
> >>> *Avec
> >>> Vygotski*, 165-185, Paris : la Dispute. 2ème édition.
> >>>
> >>> Clot, Y. & Faïta, D. (2000). Genres et styles en analyse du travail.
> >>> Concepts
> >>> et méthodes. *Travailler*, *4*, 7-42
> >>>
> >>> Dolz, J. (1995) Escribir textos argumentativos para mejorar su
> >>> comprensión. *Aprendizaje - Separata*. pp. 65-77.
> >>>
> >>> _______ (1996) Learning argumentative capacities: a study of the
> effects
> >>> of a systematic and intensive teaching of argumentative discourse in
> >>> 11-12
> >>> year old children. *Argumentation*, n.º 10. pp. 227-251.
> >>>
> >>> Dolz, J; Rey, N. & Surian, M (2004) Le débat: un dialogue avec la
> pensée
> >>> de l'autre. *Le français *aujourd'hui, n.º 146. pp. 5-15.
> >>>
> >>> Faïta, D. (1989). Mondes du travail et pratiques langagières.
> >>> *Langages*,
> >>> *93, 3*, 110-124
> >>>
> >>> Schneuwly, B. (1994). Genres et types de discours : considérations
> >>> psychologiques et ontogénétiques. In Y. Reuter (Dir.) *Les
> interactions
> >>> lecture-écriture,*155-173. Berne : Peter Lang.
> >>>
> >>> Schneuwly, B. (2002). Le développement du concept de développement
> chez
> >>> Vygotski. In Y. Clot (Dir.)* Avec Vygotski, *267-280. Paris : La
> >>> Dispute.
> >>> 2ème édition.
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> *From:* Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>> *To:* Fernanda Liberali <liberali@uol.com.br> <liberali@uol.com.br>
> >>> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu><xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:06 PM
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] Beyond Alterity/Intersubjectivity
> >>>
> >>> Fernanda-- Send a list of article you think would be helpful and we
> can
> >>> scan them
> >>> for discussion.
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On 8/27/06, Fernanda Liberali < liberali@uol.com.br> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Dear friends,
> >>> > Although I do not contribute to the list as I would love to, I would
>
> >>> > like to
> >>> > suggest that the members could add some of the Swiss writers with a
> >>> > Vygotskian and Bakhtinian backgroud to the list. I believe they
> could
> >>> > also
> >>> > contribute a lot to the discussion. In my opinion, we could try to
> add
> >>> > some
> >>> > of the discussion on the role, use and description of language
> >>> > developed by
> >>> > Bronckart, Schneuwely and Dolz, to mention some. I really believe
> that
> >>> > would
> >>> > be a wonderful opportunity to expand the discussion developed last
> >>> year
> >>> > with
> >>> > the ideas developed by Hasan, Daniels and Wells. I did it with my
> >>> group
> >>> > here
> >>> > in Brazil and I think it was a very nice opportunity for us to
> review
> >>> > our
> >>> > way of understanding language, activity, consciousness, sign and
> >>> tool.
> >>> > Unfortunately, we do not have the same amount of time to use the
> list
> >>> to
> >>> > discuss as we would love to, but, hopefully, we will be able to make
>
> >>> > some
> >>> > comments on the topic.
> >>> > Best regards,
> >>> > Fernanda Liberali
> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> > From: "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>> > To: "Phil Chappell" <philchappell@mac.com > <philchappell@mac.com>
> >>> > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu><xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:42 PM
> >>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Beyond Alterity/Intersubjectivity
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > >I am sure several people are interested, Phil. And we can easily
> and
> >>> > > fruitfully
> >>> > > take this up in a lab meeting or two. But as always, we benefit if
>
> >>> > there
> >>> > > is
> >>> > > a
> >>> > > (are some) discussion leader(s). I will be away second week of
> Sept
> >>> > and
> >>> > > pretty
> >>> > > tied up into October, so why not see who can play discussion
> >>> > facilitator?
> >>> > >
> >>> > > One idea that immediately occurs to me is that it would be helpful
>
> >>> to
> >>> > have
> >>> > > the early discussion
> >>> > > in which Hasan, Daniels, and others participated cut and paste
> >>> > together as
> >>> > > a
> >>> > > single file. We could
> >>> > > also create a single space on xmca where the papers and ancillary
> >>> > > materials
> >>> > > for discussion
> >>> > > were brought together in one place for people who experience
> >>> > navigating
> >>> > > LCHC/XMCA>
> >>> > > mike
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On 8/27/06, Phil Chappell <philchappell@mac.com ><philchappell@mac.com>wrote:
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Thanks so much, Gordon for making your paper available. bb has
> >>> > >> already suggested an approach to the two papers (yours and
> >>> > >> Halliday's) and I guess we should wait for him to get back online
>
> >>> > >> before going any further.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> It looks like Gordon's two papers could be grouped and we retain
> >>> bb's
> >>> > >> "dualing papers" strategy? Having Voloshinov/Bakhtin in the mix
> >>> makes
> >>> >
> >>> > >> for an interesting time, especially in terms of talking about
> sign
> >>> > >> mediation.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Anyone else interested?
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Phil
> >>> > >> On 27/08/2006, at 12:49 AM, Mike Cole wrote:
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> > More food for thought and perhaps for discussion? bb, phil,
> >>> > >> > david.....??
> >>> > >> > mike
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > On 8/26/06, Gordon Wells < gwells@ucsc.edu> wrote:
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> Phil and Others discussing LSV and MAKH,
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> I have been too busy teaching to do more than lurk during this
>
> >>> > >> >> discussion. However, since you and Bill have referred to my
> >>> paper
> >>> > in
> >>> > >> >> Linguistics and Education, I am taking the liberty of
> attaching
> >>> a
> >>> > >> >> paper I recently finished which has advanced my own thinking
> on
> >>> > this
> >>> > >> >> and related topics. It is currently under review.
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> Gordon
> >>> > >> >> --
> >>> > >> >> Gordon Wells
> >>> > >> >> Dept of Education,
> >>> > http://education.ucsc.edu/faculty/
> >>> > >> >> gwells
> >>> > >> >> UC Santa Cruz.
> >>> > >> >> gwells@ucsc.edu
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> > >> >> xmca mailing list
> >>> > >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> > >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > >> > xmca mailing list
> >>> > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> > >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > > _______________________________________________
> >>> > > xmca mailing list
> >>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.
> >
> > 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
> >
> > Philadelphia, PA 19144
> >
> > Home office: (215) 843-2909
> >
> > Mobile: (267) 334-2905
> >
> > ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org> <ana@zmajcenter.org>
> >
> > http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane <
> http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
> Tony Whitson
> UD School of Education
> NEWARK DE 19716
>
> twhitson@udel.edu
> _______________________________
>
> "those who fail to reread
> are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
> -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> Ana Marjanović-Shane,Ph.D. 151 W. Tulpehocken St. Philadelphia, PA 19144 Home
> office: (215) 843-2909 Mobile: (267) 334-2905 ana@zmajcenter.org
> http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane
>
>
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