Ana,
Your points are both profound and practical.
Everybody,
I think this calls for a wiki platform, where each language version of
any text can be continually improved and discussed by a number of
participlants. In some cases, a participant will make revisions that are
simply an improvement on the translation. In other cases alternatives can
be put forward that raise questions about different ways of understanding
the substance. All past versions are always available, and there can be a
discussion page linked to the document page for discussing substantive as
well as linguistic issues.
There are lots of software platforms that could handle such a wiki. I
think there was a discussion last year, however, on several interesting
texts that I never was able to get in on. I think Mike sent me a password
but it didn't work, and a few times I went on unendingly circular quests
in which at some point or another the machine in San Diego told me where
to click to get a password, but when I clicked it asked me for my
password.
On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote:
> Mike,
> I think you have a great point here, being one of those whose native language
> is other than English. At the moment I am struggling with a review of an
> article for a journal. The article was written in Portuguese and translated
> into English -- the translation is BAD. But I am not sure, as I am reading it
> if I do not understand what the author wants to convey because the
> translation is bad, because the author's ideas are not clear or because what
> the author wants to say can ONLY be said in Portuguese -- i.e. how much of
> the cultural context I am missing? Are some of the concepts s/he uses
> completely non-transparent for me the consequence of the missing cultural
> context?
> And that is precisely the fear of a non-native speaker: "Am I going to be so
> misunderstood, that my thoughts in another language seem stupid?"
> On the other hand -- having two or more languages at a disposal, making an
> effort to understand them and to express oneself in the others -- makes for a
> great intellectual grindstone. One has to bear with the process though -- it
> is slower, but probably yields a better result at the end.
>
> I am all for your idea to get some of these texts in the original French, and
> then to have them roughly translated (by a computer) into English, and then
> to start a discussion using all the relevant languages. However -- we would
> all need to have a two way or three way translation of the discussion texts
> too! In order to construct something like that together -- a multilingual
> discussion with a construction of new concepts or at least with mutual
> understanding of the concepts -- we need someone to quickly translate every
> posting (or at a request) into English/Spanish/French (and maybe more
> languages...) Does it seem like very difficult?? Probably. But maybe we can
> have a very small beginning if someone volunteers to do translations of the
> discussion as it is unfolding.
>
> (Sending this again with a fear that I sound too non-English to you)
> Ana
>
>
>
> Mike Cole wrote:
>> Thanks very much, Fernanda.
>> Your selections raise an interesting issue about language, e.g., the
>> general
>> ignorance of languages other than English among
>> American academics.
>>
>> I raised this issue with my colleagues in Chile last December and I
>> thought
>> that we had an agreement for them to select a text
>> that was in both Spanish and English and that they would be discussion
>> leaders, writing in the language they felt most comfortable
>> using, e.g. Spanish. This seemed important to me because in general I
>> think
>> that members of XMCA underestimate the communicative
>> handcap of our members living in non-English speaking countries... Often
>> such people can read English well but have difficulty
>> writing it, and they feel that their ideas will not be valued owing to the
>> inelegance of their English. So, putting the shoe on the
>> other foot (so to speak) seemed like it would be useful.
>>
>> Using myself as a yardstick (old and unreliable!) my ability to read
>> French
>> is not good, having been displaced by Russian, and
>> my ability to read spanish is little better, having been acquired only
>> informally. But it may well be that we have enough French
>> readers who can write English to lend a hand, or that (for example) we
>> could
>> get a couple of the papers (not whole books!)
>> translated so that those who would be totally left out could at least read
>> and struggle with notes about the texts in French.
>>
>> Another possibility would be to run an entire text through a computer
>> translation. This will produce a semi-interpretable text but
>> if the topic is familiar (e.g., Vygotsky, Bakhtin) readers like me might
>> recover a lot of French and be able to participate while
>> we had a strong French voice guiding the discussion.
>>
>> There are other variations. We could simply retreat from the issue and
>> read
>> the one article, by Clot, that is in English.
>> Lets see what others think. I prefer the bilingual approach personally,
>> but
>> if it is only a stunt, there is probably no point
>> to it.
>>
>> A bientot!
>> mike
>>
>> On 8/27/06, Fernanda Liberali <liberali@uol.com.br> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here are some of them. I marked the ones I prefer. I am very interested
>>> in the role of argumentation as an instrument. Because I am an applied
>>> linguist, this is a big issue, mainly, if one considers Benveniste's
>>> concern against the role of language as an instrument.
>>> Fernanda
>>> *List*
>>>
>>> Bronckart, J.P. 1993. *Action Theory and the analysis of action in
>>> education.* Paper presented at the 5th European Association for Research
>>> on Learning and Instruction.
>>>
>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (1997). *Activité langagière, textes et discours. Pour
>>> un
>>> interactionisme socio-discursif*. Paris : Delachaux & Niestlé.
>>>
>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002a). La explicación en psicología ante el desafío
>>> del
>>> significado. *Estudios de Psicología, 23 (3)*, 387-416.
>>>
>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002b). La culture, sémantique du social formatrice de
>>> la personne. In F. Rastier & S. Bouquet (Ed.), *Une introduction aux
>>> sciences de la culture* (pp. 175-201). Paris : P.U.F.
>>>
>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2004). Pourquoi et comment analyser l'agir verbal et
>>> non
>>> verbal en situation de travail ? In : J.-P. Bronckart & Groupe LAF
>>> (Ed.),
>>> *L'analyse de l'agir et des discours dans trois situations de travail*.
>>> Cahiers de la Section des Sciences de l'Education, xxxxxxxxxxxx.
>>>
>>> Bronckart, J.-P. & Groupe LAF (2004). *L'analyse de l'agir et des
>>> discours
>>> dans trois situations de travail*. Cahiers de la Section des Sciences de
>>> l'Education, xxxxxxxxxxxx.
>>>
>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002). La conscience comme " analyseur " des
>>> épistémologies de Vygotski et Piaget. In Y. Clot (Dir.) *Avec Vygotski*,
>>> 17-43.
>>>
>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2001). S'entendre pour agir et agir pour s'entendre.
>>> In
>>> J. M. Baudouin & J. Friedrich (Eds), *Théories de l'action et
>>> éducation*,
>>> 133-154. Bruxelles : De Boeck Université.
>>>
>>> Clot, Y. (1999 a). I. Oddone, les instruments de l'action. *Territoires
>>> du
>>> travail*, *3*, 12-25.
>>>
>>> Clot, Y. (2002). De Vygotski à Léontiev via Bakhtine. In Y. Clot (Dir.)
>>> *Avec
>>> Vygotski*, 165-185, Paris : la Dispute. 2ème édition.
>>>
>>> Clot, Y. & Faïta, D. (2000). Genres et styles en analyse du travail.
>>> Concepts
>>> et méthodes. *Travailler*, *4*, 7-42
>>>
>>> Dolz, J. (1995) Escribir textos argumentativos para mejorar su
>>> comprensión. *Aprendizaje - Separata*. pp. 65-77.
>>>
>>> _______ (1996) Learning argumentative capacities: a study of the effects
>>> of a systematic and intensive teaching of argumentative discourse in
>>> 11-12
>>> year old children. *Argumentation*, n.º 10. pp. 227-251.
>>>
>>> Dolz, J; Rey, N. & Surian, M (2004) Le débat: un dialogue avec la pensée
>>> de l'autre. *Le français *aujourd'hui, n.º 146. pp. 5-15.
>>>
>>> Faïta, D. (1989). Mondes du travail et pratiques langagières.
>>> *Langages*,
>>> *93, 3*, 110-124
>>>
>>> Schneuwly, B. (1994). Genres et types de discours : considérations
>>> psychologiques et ontogénétiques. In Y. Reuter (Dir.) *Les interactions
>>> lecture-écriture,*155-173. Berne : Peter Lang.
>>>
>>> Schneuwly, B. (2002). Le développement du concept de développement chez
>>> Vygotski. In Y. Clot (Dir.)* Avec Vygotski, *267-280. Paris : La
>>> Dispute.
>>> 2ème édition.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>> *To:* Fernanda Liberali <liberali@uol.com.br>
>>> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:06 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] Beyond Alterity/Intersubjectivity
>>>
>>> Fernanda-- Send a list of article you think would be helpful and we can
>>> scan them
>>> for discussion.
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On 8/27/06, Fernanda Liberali < liberali@uol.com.br> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Dear friends,
>>> > Although I do not contribute to the list as I would love to, I would
>>> > like to
>>> > suggest that the members could add some of the Swiss writers with a
>>> > Vygotskian and Bakhtinian backgroud to the list. I believe they could
>>> > also
>>> > contribute a lot to the discussion. In my opinion, we could try to add
>>> > some
>>> > of the discussion on the role, use and description of language
>>> > developed by
>>> > Bronckart, Schneuwely and Dolz, to mention some. I really believe that
>>> > would
>>> > be a wonderful opportunity to expand the discussion developed last
>>> year
>>> > with
>>> > the ideas developed by Hasan, Daniels and Wells. I did it with my
>>> group
>>> > here
>>> > in Brazil and I think it was a very nice opportunity for us to review
>>> > our
>>> > way of understanding language, activity, consciousness, sign and
>>> tool.
>>> > Unfortunately, we do not have the same amount of time to use the list
>>> to
>>> > discuss as we would love to, but, hopefully, we will be able to make
>>> > some
>>> > comments on the topic.
>>> > Best regards,
>>> > Fernanda Liberali
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>> > To: "Phil Chappell" <philchappell@mac.com >
>>> > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:42 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Beyond Alterity/Intersubjectivity
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >I am sure several people are interested, Phil. And we can easily and
>>> > > fruitfully
>>> > > take this up in a lab meeting or two. But as always, we benefit if
>>> > there
>>> > > is
>>> > > a
>>> > > (are some) discussion leader(s). I will be away second week of Sept
>>> > and
>>> > > pretty
>>> > > tied up into October, so why not see who can play discussion
>>> > facilitator?
>>> > >
>>> > > One idea that immediately occurs to me is that it would be helpful
>>> to
>>> > have
>>> > > the early discussion
>>> > > in which Hasan, Daniels, and others participated cut and paste
>>> > together as
>>> > > a
>>> > > single file. We could
>>> > > also create a single space on xmca where the papers and ancillary
>>> > > materials
>>> > > for discussion
>>> > > were brought together in one place for people who experience
>>> > navigating
>>> > > LCHC/XMCA>
>>> > > mike
>>> > >
>>> > > On 8/27/06, Phil Chappell <philchappell@mac.com > wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Thanks so much, Gordon for making your paper available. bb has
>>> > >> already suggested an approach to the two papers (yours and
>>> > >> Halliday's) and I guess we should wait for him to get back online
>>> > >> before going any further.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> It looks like Gordon's two papers could be grouped and we retain
>>> bb's
>>> > >> "dualing papers" strategy? Having Voloshinov/Bakhtin in the mix
>>> makes
>>> >
>>> > >> for an interesting time, especially in terms of talking about sign
>>> > >> mediation.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Anyone else interested?
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Phil
>>> > >> On 27/08/2006, at 12:49 AM, Mike Cole wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> > More food for thought and perhaps for discussion? bb, phil,
>>> > >> > david.....??
>>> > >> > mike
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > On 8/26/06, Gordon Wells < gwells@ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Phil and Others discussing LSV and MAKH,
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> I have been too busy teaching to do more than lurk during this
>>> > >> >> discussion. However, since you and Bill have referred to my
>>> paper
>>> > in
>>> > >> >> Linguistics and Education, I am taking the liberty of attaching
>>> a
>>> > >> >> paper I recently finished which has advanced my own thinking on
>>> > this
>>> > >> >> and related topics. It is currently under review.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Gordon
>>> > >> >> --
>>> > >> >> Gordon Wells
>>> > >> >> Dept of Education,
>>> > http://education.ucsc.edu/faculty/
>>> > >> >> gwells
>>> > >> >> UC Santa Cruz.
>>> > >> >> gwells@ucsc.edu
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> > >> >> xmca mailing list
>>> > >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> > _______________________________________________
>>> > >> > xmca mailing list
>>> > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.
>
> 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19144
>
> Home office: (215) 843-2909
>
> Mobile: (267) 334-2905
>
> ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>
>
> http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane <http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>
>
>
>
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>
Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK DE 19716
twhitson@udel.edu
_______________________________
"those who fail to reread
are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
-- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
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