So what happened with Patrick then is that ... so long as she tried to
scold him and denigrate his behaviour, and use feelings of shame to get
Patrick to change his behaviour, Patrick resisted understanding and failed
to recognise himself, ... but when he was presented with an image of
himself in a starring role in the play, he willingly recognised himself in
the character and got a big positive buzz and a boost to his
self-consciousness. He was able to look at himself from the outside so to
speak, and treat his own behaviour as something which he could control.
Surely it was that ability, to look at himself "objectively", which was the
key learning achievement? and which was associated with the emotional buzz?
Andy
At 07:46 AM 15/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>Sounds plausible to me, Andy. It makes an easy link to issues of identity.
>mike
>
>On 6/14/06, Andy Blunden <<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>ablunden@mira.net > wrote:
>>If I want to remember every note in a piano piece then it helps lots if I
>>can play it with my fingers and hear the notes back, doesn't it? The
>>sensuous experience of playing and hearing the music as well as seeing the
>>notes on the page, helps me reproduce it. Can we throw the emotional
>>experience of learning something you wanted to learn, or of recognising
>>yourself in a play, in the same basket with other sensuous experiences,
>>like that of playing and hearing the music? Aren't they all part of
>>learning? What is raised with emotion is *why* does a particular thing
>>carry an emotional load, and therefore get learnt? What was the source of
>>the rush Franklin felt when he recognised himself in the play, since I am
>>guessing that it was that recognition which gave the rush, rather than the
>>"getting it" at last?
>>
>>Andy
>>At 09:49 AM 14/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Great turn in the discussion!
>> >1) Sure there is a long history of interaction before the Franklin event.
>> >And its
>> >relevant. There was a long history to two sisters playing sisters also.
>> >And emotion
>> >and identity involved. But all of that is elided in the LSV discussion
>> >(not a criticism,
>> >he was using it as an example) and yet poeple site it in discussions of
>> >how play
>> >creates a zoped.
>> >
>> >2. LSV and ARL= every word generalizes/classifies. We have words in the
>> >English
>> >language like learning, development, thought, emotion (see prior
>> messages in
>> >this thread. They make analytic distinctions referring to/relevant to
>> >presumed processes
>> >that are themselves mutually constituitive. Yes, we murder to dissect.
>> >
>> >No, we cannot say what we mean.
>> >
>> >Not sure where to go with this conversation at present. We need to read
>> >David K's
>> >work collectively in order to be able to take in his alternative view of
>> >things. We have
>> >Kevin's work that people wanted to discuss waiting in the wings. We have
>> >summer
>> >approaching.
>> >
>> >And I have a meeting I have to be in 5 minutes ago.
>> >mike
>> >
>> >On 6/14/06, Renee <<mailto:rhayes@mundo-r.com>rhayes@mundo-r.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>Right, I was just thinking something like that when I read Jennifer's
>> >>message, too. At first there was some discussion about relationships and
>> >>learning and ZPD, and surely emotion and relationships can't be teased
>> >>apart?
>> >>
>> >>renee
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> [mailto: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
>> >>Behalf Of Jennifer Vadeboncoeur
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:07 PM
>> >>To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> >>Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: something magical
>> >>
>> >>Just reading through these, so I may have missed something, but
>> >>wasn't "emotion" there all along? Why has emotion been separated out?
>> >>It seems we are assuming we can talk about thought without
>> >>considering emotion, and while we've practiced doing that, I imagine
>> >>it to be an unfortunate necessity given our language, rather than
>> >>something "real." Hmmmm ... again, I may have missed something.
>> >>
>> >>Best to all - jen
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >Surely it didn't all happen in the final play episode - his
>> understanding
>> >> >had to be building through the earlier description/abandonment
>> moments -
>> >> >Vivian's enactment may have crystallized Franklin's thoughts - but a lot
>> >>of
>> >> >groundwork had been done beforehand. when did emotion enter in - become
>> >> >instrumental in the learning? was it building as well during the
>> >>unpleasant
>> >> >episodes with his classmates? or was it merely in the eureka rush?
>> >> >
>> >> >On 6/14/06, Mike Cole
>> <<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>lchcmike@gmail.com > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>For goodness sake lets agree that we are not talking about the
>> >> >>biochemistry
>> >> >>of
>> >> >>emotion, but of emotion as a bio-social-cogntive aspect of human
>> >> >>functioning
>> >> >>that
>> >> >>is integral to human functioning in the world!
>> >> >>
>> >> >>The self-recognition/identity process in the case of Franklin
>> seems key
>> >> >>to
>> >> >>me
>> >> >>as well. Why couldn't he construct that
>> >>self-knowledge-memory-recognition
>> >> >>from
>> >> >>an other's description and several others' abandonment of him a few
>> >> >>moments
>> >> >>earlier
>> >> >>but could when drawn into the play? That seems to me a crucial
>> question.
>> >> >>mike
>> >> >>
>> >> >>On 6/14/06, deborah downing-wilson <
>> <mailto:ddowningw@gmail.com>ddowningw@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I agree. like most of us just starting out I've been struggling
>> with
>> >> >>the
>> >> >>> emotional element - trying to come at it from as many angles as
>> >>possible
>> >> >>-
>> >> >>> I
>> >> >>> like Plotkin's speculation that the emotional intensity of the
>> >> >>> parent-child
>> >> >>> relationship suggests emotion has a place in the deliberate passing
>> >>of
>> >> >>> information to the next generation - it seems fitting that it has a
>> >> >>> special
>> >> >>> place in all learning. We certainly do a lot of whooping and
>> >>cheering
>> >> >>> when
>> >> >>> our babies/children learn somehting new. Damasio's work is also
>> >> >>> interesting
>> >> >>> - like others he argues that emotions are socially constructed -
>> but
>> >> >>turns
>> >> >>> the idea around. Instead of being expressions of inner
>> feelings, the
>> >> >>> learned social response (smile) engenders inner subjective feelings
>> >> >>> (joy). can
>> >> >>> we capture and explore these events within the zoped? can we create
>> >> >>> contexts that encourage emotional envolvement? Paley seemed to do it
>> >> >>with
>> >> >>> Franklin - but she and Franklin had a long history together - built
>> >> >>trust.
>> >> >>> so many questions. no time.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Deb
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 6/14/06, Andy Blunden <
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I can't explain Deborah. This is just something I've heard
>> about in
>> >> >>the
>> >> >>> > media. I hesitate to say any more and only further display my
>> >> >>ignorance.
>> >> >>> I
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > only know that when you learn something and you get a big
>> emotional
>> >> >>hit
>> >> >>> at
>> >> >>> > the same time, positive or negative, you're not going to
>> forget it.
>> >> >>> > Learning is not a totally 'platonic' process is it - *something*
>> >> >>changes
>> >> >>> > in
>> >> >>> > our body when we acquire habits.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Andy
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > At 09:26 PM 13/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>> >> >>> > >biochemical affect? please explain.
>> >> >>> > >
>> >> >>> > >On 6/13/06, Andy Blunden <
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>ablunden@mira.net > wrote:
>> >> >>> > >>
>> >> >>> > >>Well I think it would be superficial to stop at emotion (though
>> >>at
>> >>a
>> >> >>> > very
>> >> >>> > >>basic level the experience of emotion is intuitively accessible
>> >>and
>> >> >>> > >>telling). I think emotions only make sense if we have a
>> handle on
>> >> >>> > identity
>> >> >>> > >>and however we understand what it is that it means to "do"
>> >> >>something,
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> > >>be
>> >> >>> > >>an actor in the world. If we leave emotion at the level of
>> >> >>biochemical
>> >> >>> > >>affect we surely have no real way of connecting it with
>> learning.
>> >> >>Why
>> >> >>> > was
>> >> >>> > >>Franklin delighted when he saw that he was the star in this
>> >>little
>> >> >>> play?
>> >> >>> > >>How did he recognise that it was himself?
>> >> >>> > >>Andy
>> >> >>> > >>At 07:37 AM 13/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>> >> >>> > >> >My guess is that it is recriprocal emotionality, Andy. A
>> >> >>particular
>> >> >>> > kind
>> >> >>> > >> >of difference that makes a difference.
>> >> >>> > >> >What were people feeling when everyone turned to Franklin as
>> >>they
>> >> >>> > >> >recognized Vivian "being" Franklin? What
>> >> >>> > >> >did they feel when he slapped his knee and said. "You got it
>> >>just
>> >> >>> > >> >right"? And what did he feel? Certainly not bad,
>> >> >>> > >> >judging from the evidence.
>> >> >>> > >> >
>> >> >>> > >> >And what was THE cause of this convergence of positive affect?
>> >>Its
>> >> >>> in
>> >> >>> > the
>> >> >>> > >> >intricacies of the answer to that question
>> >> >>> > >> >that we need a Zo to help us understand.
>> >> >>> > >> >mike
>> >> >>> > >> >
>> >> >>> > >> >On 6/12/06, Andy Blunden <<mailto: ablunden@mira.net>
>> >> >>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>ablunden@mira.net
>> >> >>> > >
>> >> >>> > >>wrote:
>> >> >>> > >> >>Mike Cole said:
>> >> >>> > >> >> >[snip]
>> >> >>> > >> >> >This "something magical" certainly is very important in
>> our
>> >> >>> > >>afterschool
>> >> >>> > >> >> >work. It includes not only the experience and good will of
>> >> >>those
>> >> >>> > >>involved,
>> >> >>> > >> >> >but also strong emotional bonds that grow between
>> >>undergrads,
>> >> >>> kids
>> >> >>> > and
>> >> >>> > >> >> >staff. -- almost a kind of emotional flow.
>> >> >>> > >> >>
>> >> >>> > >> >>Mike, this "something magical" seems to be the emotional hit
>> >>that
>> >> >>> > both
>> >> >>> > >> >>learner and teacher get when the learner makes a breakthrough
>> >>in
>> >> >>> > >>learning
>> >> >>> > >> >>and development, doesn't it? I remember hearing stuff in the
>> >> >>media
>> >> >>> > which
>> >> >>> > >> >>went to the neurological basis of how emotions reinforce
>> >> >>learning,
>> >> >>> > and I
>> >> >>> > >> >>understand it is a regular part of sports coaching
>> nowadays to
>> >> >>> > >>deliberately
>> >> >>> > >> >>manipulate the emotional experiences of performers when they
>> >>do
>> >>a
>> >> >>> > thing
>> >> >>> > >> >>right or do it wrong supposedly to bring about neurological
>> >> >>changes
>> >> >>> > >>which
>> >> >>> > >> >>will attract or repel repetitions of the action.
>> >> >>> > >> >>
>> >> >>> > >> >>It always seemed to me that in our theory of the use of
>> >>artefacts
>> >> >>> > this
>> >> >>> > >> >>emotional loading tends to be overlooked, and yet that is
>> >>surely
>> >> >>> > exactly
>> >> >>> > >> >>what is magical?
>> >> >>> > >> >>
>> >> >>> > >> >>
>> >> >>> > >> >>Andy
>> >> >>> > >> >>
>> >> >>> > >>
>> >> >>> > >>Andy Blunden, for Victorian Peace Network, phone +61 3 9380 9435
>> >> >>> > >>Global Justice Tours:
>> <http://ethicalpolitics.org>http://ethicalpolitics.org
>> >> >>> > >>
>> >> >>> > >>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>> > >>xmca mailing list
>> >> >>> > >> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >> >>> > >>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >> >>> > >
>> >> >>> > >
>> >> >>> > >
>> >> >>> > >--
>> >> >>> > >Deborah Downing-Wilson
>> >> >>> > >_______________________________________________
>> >> >>> > >xmca mailing list
>> >> >>> > ><mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >> >>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Andy Blunden, for Victorian Peace Network, phone +61 3 9380 9435
>> >> >>> > Global Justice Tours:
>> <http://ethicalpolitics.org>http://ethicalpolitics.org
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> > xmca mailing list
>> >> >>> > <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >> >>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> Deborah Downing-Wilson
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> xmca mailing list
>> >> >>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>xmca mailing list
>> >> >><mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >Deborah Downing-Wilson
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >xmca mailing list
>> >> ><mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>______________________________
>> >>
>> >>Dr. Jennifer A. Vadeboncoeur
>> >>The University of British Columbia
>> >>Faculty of Education
>> >>2125 Main Mall
>> >>Library Block 272B
>> >>Vancouver BC V6T-1Z4
>> >>
>> >>phone: 1.604.822.9099
>> >>fax: 1.604.822.3302
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>xmca mailing list
>> >><mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>xmca mailing list
>> >><mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >xmca mailing list
>> ><mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>Andy Blunden, for Victorian Peace Network, phone +61 3 9380 9435
>>Global Justice Tours: <http://ethicalpolitics.org>http://ethicalpolitics.org
Andy Blunden, for Victorian Peace Network, phone +61 3 9380 9435
Global Justice Tours: http://ethicalpolitics.org
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