I agree Mary, that for an understanding of the meaning of subjectivity
in today's context, poststructuralists like Judith Butler and Michel
Foucault (and Cavarero ?I think?) are indispensable, as they are the
main critics of subjectivity still today. But I really do think at
least a health warning needs to be attached to such a recommendation,
viz., that for these writers "subjectivity" means what I at least
would call "subject position", and not anything like what either Anna
Stetsenko or I, for example, would call "subjectivity."
Poststructuralists claim to have "deconstructed the subject", for them
it is an illusion. To Judith Butler's credit, she does indeed claim
and promote the capacity of individual people and groups to change the
discourses and narratives (structures) which determine them, but as I
see it at any rate, this possibility, open to an individual to
intervene in the structures which determine their consciousness is not
so much an afterthought - to say that would be missing the point - but
it is at the margins. (Much like those kind of leftists who say that
the state control everything, but still envisage the possibility of
overthrowing the state.)
I think poststructuralism is a powerful theory, but don't you find it
very "objectivist" as well, Mary?
I wish I could offer an alternative reading list, but I find that
those writers who are currently promoting subjectivity (e.g. Frank
Ferudi, James Heartfield, Charles Taylor) I cannot recommend without
"health warnings" either.
Andy
PS. Everything people on this list have to say about *how* to discuss,
I always read with the greatest attention, because XMCA is really the
most outstandingly successful and productive list that exists. I will
try to do better.
At 08:32 AM 10/11/2005 -0800, you wrote:
Two short books would, I think, provide an excellent overview of
contemporary thinking about this vexed matter of "self",
"subjectivitity",
and the relationality of self and others, and of course, self as
Other to
itself...
Judith Butler, Giving an Account of Oneself, 2005, Fordham
University Press
Adriana Cavarero, (1997), Relating Narratives: Storytelling and
selfhood,
Routledge
But for the sake of completeness, I would have to add, Michel
Foucault's
later work, The Hermaneutics of the Subject, 2001, Palgrave -- kind
of
fascinating because, published posthumously, these are literally
transcriptions of Foucault lecturing at the University.
A little contemplative reading is, I think, more helpful here than
trying to
summarize about 300 years of work in an email -- and actually, if
you just
read the Butler text, which is less than 150 pages, you will get it
all.
Mary
---------------
Mary K. Bryson, Associate Professor and Graduate Coordinator, ECPS,
Faculty
of Education, University of British Columbia
Research Profile
[1]http://www.ecps.educ.ubc.ca/research/mbryson.htm
On 11/9/05 8:52 AM, "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mary-- I found the message where I raised questions about the use
of the
> term,
> subjectivity. The question I am raising is one that I have
brooded about for
> a long
> time without ever seeking to bring the discourses where
subjectivity is a
> key term
> and discourses that use terms like psyche, mind, etc. that tend
to come from
> different
> places/times.
> This may not be productive for people to discuss if others are
clear on it
> but I am not
> so would benefit from such a discussion.
> mike
> ------------
> Second, and on a very different tack. I would really appreciate
help
> understanding warrants for claims about another person or group's
> "subjectivity."
> I am a member of modern academic culture, so of course I have a
general idea
> of what the term means from its uses, as in Anna's paper, but in
cultural
> studies more broadly. But, perhaps because of my training as a
behaviorist,
> or perhaps because of my training as a student of Alexander
Luria's, many
> uses
> of the term make me nervous, and that extends to Anna's paper and
your
> discussion with Martin (for whom the term is more comfortable, I
believe --
> Please, Martin, Anna, Andy, Mary, and others join in here).
>
> Danzinger recounts how it came about that a researcher in a
German
> laboratory in the 1880's-1990's came to be called "the subject,"
the person
> whose
> psychological states/perceptions/elements of
consciousness/....... his (it
> was all hims at the time) research-partner was, in collaboration
with the
> subject,
> trying to obtain "scientific evidence" about. In simple terms, it
was the
> problem of how you could know what someone else was
thinking/feeling.
>
> Luria writes about his disillusion with various attempts to solve
this
> problem. He specifed, in The Nature of Human Conflicts, and again
in his
> autobiography,
> a method in which the researcher created a situation where s/he
and the
> "subject" were coordinated in a cultural medium. The behavior of
both was
> voluntary, not reflexive. Once they achieve highly coordinated
joint
> actions, the researcher introduces a highly selected change into
the
> situation and
> determines if this change results in a change in the coordinated
actions of
> the "subject." ONLY when there is selective, predictable,
DIS-coordination
> of the coordinated joint activity is there a warrant for a claim
about the
> other person's thought/feeling.
>
> Peg Griffin and I sought to extend this idea into the diagnosis
and
> remediation of reading difficulties of children with, I believe,
reasonable
> success. Bruner and
> others used it, without acknowledgement or recognition of its
general
> importance so far as I know, in studies where, for example,
infants are
> first habituated
> to a series of stimuli while their "signature" rhythmic sucking
is recorded
> and then a small change of interest (phoeme, visual
configuration...) is
> introduced
> to see if the suckig is disrupted.
>
> I can give other examples from rare, but naturally occuring
events I have
> participated in.
>
> But in general, what are the warrants for claims about another
person's or
> another people's subjectivity? Last night on National Public
Radio I heard a
> Palastinian and other people writing "in diaspora" speak of the
fence as
> huge influence on his feeling of being walled out of his own
country. The
> people from various parts
> of Africa rioting in Paris are clearly outraged over their
treatment by the
> French and I see their anger in their actions. But what can I
claim to know
> about their
> subjectivity (their anger is objectively visible to me)? What can
my
> daughter, who has lived in Eastern Madagascar at various periods
in her
> life, gotten
> extraordinarily ill from helping grow rice in swamps,
participated in cattle
> sacrifice, grieved at the death of her Malagasy ancestors, know
about
> Malagasy
> subjectivity? Behind my back,the BBC is showing anyone who will
watch the
> subjectivity of Latin Americans outraged at American policies.
What can I
> know about their subjectivity other than its external
manifestations?
>
> This is not a known answer question. I would appreciate help in
coming to
> terms with the use of this term. I believe it must be used with
great care
> and the
> possibility of claims being incorrect. Luria wanted to be able to
> distinguish what people said from what they "felt." In Anna's
paper, the
> terms subjectivity
> and intersubjectivity are central. What is being meant by what is
being
> written?
> _______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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Andy Blunden, on behalf of the Victorian Peace Network, Phone (+61)
03-9380 9435
Alexander Surmava's Tour - September/October 2006
[4]http://ethicalpolitics.org[5]/alexander-surmava/index.htm
References
1. http://www.ecps.educ.ubc.ca/research/mbryson.htm
2. http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
3. http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
4. http://ethicalpolitics.org/alexander-surmava/index.htm
5. http://ethicalpolitics.org/alexander-surmava/index.htm
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