I'm not entirely convinced of your argument Sasha, but I do sympathise
with your basic thesis. People like Tony Smith (The Logic of Marx's
Capital, Replies to Hegelian Criticisms) who promote the search for a
"method" in Marx repulse me. I have Bert Ollman's "Dance of the
dialectic. Steps in Marx's Method" on my bookshelf, and haven't got to
open it yet. Do you agree, Sasha, that a critical attitude towards
claims of a "Marxist methodology" is also appropriate? Can critique be
reduced to a "method"?
comradely,
Andy
At 01:49 AM 22/08/2005 +0400, you wrote:
Hi, Andy
Indeed, "Discourse on Method" can be roughly translated as
"Methodology" but
we can do it just because that is a text of Descartes, because
according his
philosophy the method of thinking or the law of thinking reflects
the
causality of "mental substance" as it is. This method and this law
exists
independently from laws of objective or "extensive" world or
"substance".
That's why the Descartes method can be comprehended as so called
"methodology". (But still and all I think that this interpretation
will be
too rough even for Descartes.)
But when we are translating the texts of Spinoza, Hegel or Marx
applying the
term "methodology" will be a gross error.
As for "the methodology of medicine" we have to pay attention not
only on
date, but at the subject of term as well. Even now a medicine
remains more
an art of curing than theoretically well-founded discipline. And
what can we
expect from medicine 1800? It's useless to examine this
"methodology" with
hope to find the slightest signs of dialectic or theoretical
reflection in
it. A compendium of uncoordinated, theoretically untied empirical
methods -
that is this "methodology", and usually all other methodologies as
well. (I
advisedly emphasize the situation. I know that the antique medicine
was very
close to philosophy - good dialectical philosophy. But the medicine
of XIX -
XX centuries renounce succession as heir from antique culture in
favor of
utmost empiricism.)
And finally I want to underline the characteristic detail that
according to
OED the first language where it was used was English - the language
(the
culture) basicly connected with tradition of classical
empiricism of
J.Locke.
As for mentioned by Wolff-Michael German scholars who "love to use
expressions like "methodisch-methodologisch" I can suppose that
this is
connected with Neo-Kantianist tendencies.
Cheers,
Sasha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [[1]mailto:xm ca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:32 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Method/Methodology
>
>
> But surely Sasha, isn't "Discourse on Method" roughly
translated as
> "Methodology"? I agree with your conclusion that the
study of any
> particular science is inseparable from the study of the method
of that
> science, but I do question the recentness of the
concept of
> "methodology." According to the OED, the word was first
used in
> English in 1800 as "the methodology of medicine".
> Andy
> At 03:09 PM 21/08/2005 +0400, you wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> IMHO the problem of meaning of so called
“methodology” is a
> little bit more
> complicated than it can be estimated from the first sight.
First of
> all this
> term is rather new. It was brought into fashion in the
beginning of
> the last
> century. Neither Hegel nor Marx had ever used it.
Certainly
> Ilyenkov knew
> this term but never used it either.
> In the strict sense this term derives to those
philosophical
> schools which
> suppose the thinking and the objective reality as
something
> initially
> distinct and independent of each other.
> On the contrary according the Spinozian point of view there
is no
> methodology without theory. In other words a method
can be
> comprehended only
> as a reflection of theory, of “idea”. One can not
discuss
> method in
> abstracto. (For example a soviet philosopher
G.P.Schedrovitsky
> pretended to
> invent a universal abstract methodology applicable in any
sphere.)
> We can read at Spinoza’s “On the Improvement
of the
> Understanding”
> [2]http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/spinoza/Imp rovement.ht
> ml
> “…method is nothing else than reflective knowledge, or
the idea
> of an idea;
> and that as there can be no idea of an idea --- unless
an idea
> exists
> previously, --- there can be no method without a
pre-existent
> idea.”
> That is why Ilyenkov - a consistent spinozist - never used
term
> “methodology” as well as “epistemology”. From his
POV the
> only possible
> “methodology”, “epistemology” or “the
theory of
> knowledge” is di=lectic. But
> real, genuine dialectic is impossible in abstraction
from real,
> concrete
> theoretical or practical process.
> We can find a fragment in Ilyenkov’s “Dialectical
logic”
> “...Marx, Engels,
> and Lenin established that it was dialectics, and only
dialectics,
> that was
> the real logic in accordance with which modern
thought made
> progress. It was
> it, too, that operated at the ‘growing points’ of
modern
> science, although
> the representatives of science were not wholly conscious
of the
> fact. That
> was why logic as a science coincided (merged) not
only with
> dialectics but
> also with the theory of knowledge of materialism. ‘In
Capital
> Marx applied
> to a single science logic, dialectics, and the theory of
knowledge
> of
> materialism (three words are not needed; it is one and
the same
> thing),’ is
> how Lenin categorically formulated it.”
> [3]http://www.marxists.org/archive/ilyenkov/works/essays/es say9.htm
> As for Vygotsky who used this term the situation is
much more
> complex.
> Indeed we can find the terms “methodology” as
well as
> “dialectic” in
> Vygotsky’s theoretical luggage. But the division of his
theoretic
> heritage
> into theoretic and methodologic halves is extremely
unproductive.
> He has
> advanced in theory as far as in methodology, and vice versa.
>
> Cheers,
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Alexander V. Surmava, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> The Russian State University for the Humanities
> The Vygotsky Institute of Psychology
> Liapidevskogo str. 8-2-274
> 125581 Moscow, Russia
> tel./fax: 7 (095) 455-88-24
> mob.: 7 903 579-19-20
> e-mail: monada@netvox.ru
> = monada@voxnet.ru
> ICQ: 84411775
> [1]http://www.voxnet.ru/~monada
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
[[2]mailto:xm
> ca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Carol Macdonald
> > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 2:34 PM
> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Method/Methodology
> >
> > Hi,
> > I don't have a reference except for Wertsch (1979)
ACTIVITY
> THEORY but
> > we make a very strong distinction at our university,
and
> regard
> > methodology as the study of method, or metatheory, and
method as
> the
> > specific method adopted in a particular study.
Margaret
> Donaldson, who
> > was my Ph D supervisor two decades ago explained the
distinction
> to me,
> > and so I wrote about method in my little studies I did
then.
> > Carol
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> [[3][4]mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Ares, Nancy
> > Sent: 17 August 2005 07:34 PM
> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> > Cc: Franz Breuer
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Method/Methodology
> >
> > although the chapter below is not particular to
cultural
> historical
> > theory,
> > Harding presents a very clear distinction between method
and
> > methodology,
> > making a strong case for attending to methodology in terms
of
> > epistemology;
> > philosophies of knowledge, knowers, and knowing; and
theory to
> > distinguish
> > research paradigms, rather than simply to methods that are
> > characteristic.
> >
> >
> > Harding, S. (1987). Introduction: Is there a feminist
method?
> In
> > S.
> > Harding (Ed.), Feminism and methodology: Social science
issues
> (pp.
> > 1-13).
> > Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press.
> >
> > Nancy Ares
> > Assistant Professor
> > Teaching & Curriculum
> > The Warner Graduate School of Education
> > and Human Development
> > University of Rochester
> > P.O. Box 270425
> > Rochester, NY 14627
> > 585-273-5957
> > fax 585-473-7598
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Wolff-Michael Roth
> > > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:23 PM
> > > To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity
> > > Cc: Franz Breuer
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Method/Methodology
> > >
> > > Is there anyone from Germany on this list? I know
German
> scholar love
> > > to use expressions like "methodisch-methodologisch".
I will
> copy this
> > > message to a friend in Germany, Franz Breuer, a
qualitatively
> working
> > > psychologist and co-editor of the online journal FQS:
FORUM
> > QUALITATIVE
> > > SOZIALFORSCHUNG / FORUM QUALITATIVE SOCIAL RESEARCH.
> > >
> > > In my book on research method that is going to be
published
> this or
> > > next week, I point out that methodology is something
like the
> science
> > > of method, as distinct to the particular method you
use in
> enacting a
> > > project. More so, I think it is important to practice
method
> for
> > > graduate students rather than merely to read
methodologies,
> treatises
> > > that conceptualize different ways of doing research. . .
> > >
> > > I think there is a greater penchant in Germany, for
example, to
> do
> > real
> > > methodological work, as you can find it in Stegmüller
(1974),
> who
> > > distinguishes different ways of conducting historical
research,
> etc.
> > >
> > > Stegmüller, W. (1974). Probleme und
Resultate der
> Wissenschaftstheorie
> >
> > > und Analytischen Philosophie, Band I:
Wissenschaftliche
> Erklärung und
> > > Begründung[Problems and results of a theory of
science and
> analytical
> > > philosophy, volume 1: Scientific explication and
explanation].
> Berlin:
> >
> > > Springer-Verlag.
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps we can get Franz to assist us on this list?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > On 17-Aug-05, at 10:16 AM, Mike Cole wrote:
> > >
> > > > A visiting colleague has rasied the issue of the
distinction
> between
> >
> > > > method
> > > > and methodology in a cultural-historical
> > > > perspective. I do not know offhand of any good
written
> discussions
> > of
> > > > this
> > > > distinction although I think it is important.
> > > > Can anyone help?
> > > > mike
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > [4]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > [5]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > [6]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > [7]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> _______________________________________________
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> Andy Blunden=[9]http://home.mira.net/~andy/index.htm (61)
3 9380
> 9435
>
> References
>
> 1. 3D"[5]http://w= ww.voxnet.ru/~monada" 2. 3D"mailto:xmca-
> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu"
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References
1. 3D"mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu"
2. 3D"http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/spinoza/Improvement.ht 3. 3D"http://www.marxists.org/archive/ilyenkov/works/essays/essay9.htm" 4. 3D"mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu" 5. 3D"http://www.voxnet.ru/~monada"
6. 3D"mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu"
7. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
8. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
9. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
10. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
11. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca" 12. 3D"http://home.mira.net/~andy/index.htm" 13. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca" 14. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
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