Hi Ed,
A late response - I wonder how "intersubjectivity" fits in with your
problem? A colleague of mine (who I believe is lerking here) is
designing a study of teacher-student intersubjectivity, in which I am
sure attention and engagement will figure. You say "Some effort is
needed to create a way of meaning that turns out to be meaningful to
all, not just to those who come pre-disposed to learn decontextualised
knowledge structures" - in my context of language teaching, this is
probably the single biggest challenge, especially as values of language
knowledge are credited to traditional grammatical descriptions and
rules - I am sure Wittgenstein would shudder in his suit ;-) Of course,
the Bernstein view is from a different time and social space, but there
are aspects that surely can be shared.
Ed, you also said "listening, I think, has a lot to to do with the
ideational, the interpersonal, and the textual aspects of saying" - you
are in sync with the (I am not sure what abbreviation to use any more -
let me use SFL, and hope an SFL'er may suggest a more appropriate
acronym, since we are at a serious cross-disciplinary border crossing,
as Mike just mentioned) SFL view of the most fundamental language
functions that constitute human semiosis.
Thanks for your questions - they kept me awake last night! But
importantly, could you elaborate on, or provide a reference on Corradi
Fiumara? This will certainly add a layer to our discussions.
Cheers,
Phil
On 05/07/2005, at 6:49 AM, Ed Wall wrote:
> As I read Ruqaiya's nice analysis of mediate, my thoughts wandered to
> Hegel (and Kierkegaard for that matter) and his use of the term.
> Charles Taylor notes
>
> In Hegel's usage we can speak of something as 'immediate' when it
> exists on its own, without necessarily being related to something
> else. Else it is called 'mediate.' If on the level of ordinary talk
> and not of speculative philsophy I speak of somebody as a man, I am
> speaking of him as something 'immediate,' for (at this level of talk
> anyway) a man can exist on his own. But if I speak of him as a father,
> or brother or son, then he is seen as 'mediate,' for his being one of
> these requires his relation to someone else.
>
> and was wondering how/if Vygotosky was influenced.
>
>
> However, my interest was quite captured by Ruqaiya's last paragraph
> as education is a place I where spend much of my thinking. Especially
> the bit
>
> Obviously, semiotic mediation can only succeed if the receiver
> receives with understanding; a condition for understanding is the
> recruitment of attention and engagement. Why should we expect that
> pupils coming from distinct social positions will all have the same
> notions of relevance, the same urge for engagement with the same
> 'knowledge'. Some effort is needed to create a way of meaning that
> turns out to be meaningful to all, not just to those who come
> pre-disposed to learn decontextualised knowledge structures.
>
> Here she speaks about the 'receiver' and the 'recruitment of attention
> and engagement.'
> Heraclitus writes
>
> not knowing how to listen, neither can they speak. They are at odds
> with what
> they have most continuous involvement
>
> The Greek word legein means 'to say', but it also has the sense of
> laying down or gathering together. Hence, listening, I think, has a
> lot to to do with the ideational, the interpersonal, and the textual
> aspects of saying. But, as Corradi Fiumara remarks (in the Other Side
> of Language)
>
> In the readiness to understand there is precisely an effort to follow
> up the inner consequentiality of someone's expressions: the
> disposition that gives life to a 'listening event'.
>
> So there is this critical business of 'engagement' and what might be
> termed anticipation. This last has something to do with relevance, but
> relevance sounds, given Corradi Fiumara, almost too bland and there
> are times, it seems, when the seeming irrelevant or unanticipated is
> what is engaging or has life.
> Anyway, much of my time is spent trying to mix relevance and the
> potential for engagement into mine and my students curriculum so
> relevant :-) conversation and thoughts related to semiotic mediation
> would be most helpful.
>
>
> Ed Wall
>
>> much clipped
>>
>> The implied issue:
>> This issue has to do with what is often offered by way of example as
>> the paradigm examples of semiotic mediation relevant to the
>> development of higher mental functions. I have maintained in both
>> papers offered here for discussion that the examples are limited to
>> knowledge of the kind that is relevant to "official" pedagogy such as
>> logical reasoning, concept formation and so on. I would make two
>> points: First, this emphasis on what counts as the most important
>> materials for the making of developed minds is solely "ideational" in
>> terms of Halliday; it is traditionally highly valued and has played
>> an enormous role in our "exosomatic evolution". It dfinitely empowers
>> manipulation and control of the universe. But this urge for control
>> and manipulation has perhaps now become dysfunctional since it is
>> being emphasised at the cost of our regard for the 'other'. If our
>> conception of what constitutes "higher" mental function is limited to
>> such phenomena of mental life and if this is accompanied by a
>> disregard of the other, which is endemic to our educational systems
>> -- in fact pretty much to our society as a whole -- then I fear that
>> instead of evolution of the species, it may in fact push the human
>> race towards the brink of extinction. The second point implied in
>> this paper but developed a little more in the other (semiotic
>> mediation in pluralistic societies...) is the relevance of paying
>> attention to what is mediated completely unconsciously day in and day
>> out in the life of young children and what therefore enters into the
>> formation of their notions of what counts as relevant. Obviously,
>> semiotic mediaiton can only succeed if the receiver receives with
>> understanding; a condition for understanding is the recruitment of
>> attention and engagement. Why should we expect that pupils coming
>> from distinct social positions will all have the same notions of
>> relevance, the same urge for engagement with the same 'knowledge'.
>> Some effort is needed to create a way of meaning that turns out to be
>> meaningful to all, not just to those who come pre-disposed to learn
>> decontextualised knowledge structures. While saying this, I realise
>> that there is a very strong trend whereby to talk of difference is
>> more culpable than to participate in perpetuating difference, which
>> we all do, willing or unwillingly.
>>
>> Over to you all!
>>
>
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