Wheen's biography is very interesting partly because it is very much
concerned with the type of person Marx was. I agree with you about the idea
of loyalty of one's field, so long as one never forgets that one's "field"
is also a human entity, extended in time and space, assembled around a
common practice. Marx has to be understood in this way, too. His project
was very future-directed I think. By personality, he was someone who tended
to divide people into his friends and his enemies, with very, very few on
the side of "friend", but those friends did include workers.
Andy
At 05:50 PM 8/01/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear Andy
>
>
>
>Thanks a lot for the useful reference and for your arguments. Although I
>still cant see workers as addressees and audience in Marxs writings, Im
>very open to reconsider this. The reason I still cant buy your argument
>(if I understand it correctly, of course, if not, please correct me) is
>that I personally know well many people but often I do not write my
>academic papers having them in mind (including my family). I often write
>to (and even with) people whom I do not personally know (except, probably,
>my extensive correspondence with my students during classes I teach). Im
>not sure how much my biography or Marxs biography can reveal our targeted
>audience.
>
>
>
>A few years ago I remember reading a study published in Chronicle of
>Higher Education about loyalty of people working in academia. It showed
>that the highest loyalty people have not to their colleagues or
>universities but to the field in which they work.
>
>
>
>Based on reading Marxs writings I suspect that Marxs audience was
>revolutionary intellectuals but not workers. For me, a persuasive
>counter-argument is his writing where he addressed workers, cited them,
>and talked to and with them.
>
>
>
>What do you think?
>
>
>
>Eugene
>
>PS Andy, as I said before, I very much appreciate the interesting
>references you provided and your willingness to convince me in opposite.
>Id love to see Marxs texts written for, to, and with workers because,
>inspired by Bakhtin, Im looking for alternatives to the current academic
>discourse.
>
>
>
>----------
>From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
>Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:05 AM
>To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>Subject: RE: false consciousness: real and virtual worlds
>
>
>
>Eugene,
>I think it fair to say that as a youngster, Marx had never seen a
>proletarian, and his early contacts with workers read like reports of the
>"noble savage". His experiences in the International Workingmen's
>Association however did mark a break. Living as an exile in London, he was
>invited to join the General Council and for several years there he did
>indeed work in day-to-day collaboration with workers. True, these were
>relatively politically conscious workers, but political consciousness is
>not the exclusive preserve of intellectuals. If you are talking about
>whether Marx addressed himself to politically illiterate and naive people,
>then that is an altogether different question. The La Liberte speech comes
>from the battle against Bakunin and is most certainly addressed to working
>class people. Abstention from politics was a strong current of thought
>among English trade unionists.
>
>Marx was actually opposed to radical intelligentsia like himself even
>being allowed to join the IWMA. He was persuaded to agree to this, but he
>was never comfortable with even his own position in the IWMA.
>
>I don't know if you've read Francis Wheen's biography "Karl Marx", but I
>found it very very helpful. Wheen is quite ruthless, but I think he
>accurately brings out what were Marx's real insights in a sympathetic way.
>
>It's not on line, but it's paperback and cheap and a good read.
>
>Andy
>
>At 06:17 PM 4/01/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Dear Andy and everybody
>
>
>
>Thanks a lot, Andy, for very useful references to Marxs speeches. However,
>I could not find speeches where Marx treated workers as YOU. Maybe I was
>out of luck or maybe I am misinterpreting Marxs writings (speeches). Let
>me give an example from Andys list. Here is a fragment from Marxs speech
>The International Working Men's Association, 1872 La Liberté Speechat
><http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/09/08.htm>http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/09/08.htm
>
>
>
>
>In our midst there has been formed a group advocating the workers'
>abstention from political action. We have considered it our duty to
>declare how dangerous and fatal for our cause such principles appear to be.
>
>Someday the worker must seize political power in order to build up the new
>organization of labor; he must overthrow the old politics which sustain
>the old institutions, if he is not to lose Heaven on Earth, like the old
>Christians who neglected and despised politics.
>
>But we have not asserted that the ways to achieve that goal are everywhere
>the same.
>
>You know that the institutions, mores, and traditions of various countries
>must be taken into consideration, and we do not deny that there are
>countries -- such as America, England, and if I were more familiar with
>your institutions, I would perhaps also add Holland -- where the workers
>can attain their goal by peaceful means. This being the case, we must also
>recognize the fact that in most countries on the Continent the lever of
>our revolution must be force; it is force to which we must some day appeal
>in order to erect the rule of labor.
>
>It is difficult for me to assume that Marx referred YOU and WE to workers.
>Rather he seemed to refer workers to HEand THEM. It seems to me that WE
>and YOU were revolutionary intellectuals talking and thinking on behalf of
>(most progressive, those without false consciousness) workers.
>
>
>
>What do you think?
>
>
>
>Eugene
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 10:59 PM
>
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> > Subject: RE: false consciousness: real and virtual worlds
>
> >
>
> > There are lots of examples of Marx talking TO working class people in his
>
> > writings. For example his talks on Economics which were given to groups of
>
> > revolutionary-minded workers, and his speeches at the International
>
> > Workingmen's Association. Not that of course his more philosophical or
>
> > polemical works weren't meant for the eyes of workers, but nor were they
>
> > specifically aimed at working class people.
>
> >
>
> > Examples:
>
> > http://www.marxists.org/history/international/iwma/documents/speeches.htm
>
> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch01.htm
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > A
>
> >
>
> > > I wonder how Marxist texts would look like (and if they are
>
> > >possible) if Marx wrote not ABOUT working class (to a community of
>
> > >middle-class revolutionary intellectuals) but TO working class people (not
>
> > >as a mentor but as a "buddy"). I'm not talking about popularization of
>
> > >Marx's ideas to working class people but again to talking to (if not with)
>
> > >them. Is such text possible? Would it have "false consciousness" wording?
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