Nate,
The quote is from Luria's French article. I have the article. Sève reffered
to Luria not Vygotsky (see p.289, not 82). In page 225, yes Sève said: "...
one really reflects on the basis of Marxism, one takes seriously, for
example, this highly profound observation of the Soviet psychologist,
Vygotsky". I spent a lot of times hoping to find this quote in Vygotsky's
writings but no success. If Luria took it from Vygotsky, he did not cite the
reference from where he got it.
Mohamed Elhammoumi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nate" <vygotsky@charter.net>
To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Psychology and Marxism Updates
> elhammoumi,
>
>
> So, Lucien Seve referring to the quote as "this highly profound
> observation of the Soviet Psychologist, Vygotsky" is incorrect?
>
> In either case, it works just as well for Luria.
>
> nate
>
> > Hi Alfred,
> > Back to your question. Where do I find the quote and its further
context?
> > The quote was taken from A. Luria's article. This article is titled:
> > Vygotski et l'étude des fonctions psychiques supérieures. Recherches
> > Internationales à la Lumière du Marxisme, 1966, No.51, pp. 93-103.
(Written
> > by Luria for the special issue of this Review titled: La Psychologie.
> > Translated by Marcel Castoldi). It is a special issue on Psychology and
> > Marxism.
> >
> > I used this quote in my paper in the section Vygotsky and the six thesis
on
> > Feuerbach. The quote is extracted from Luria's article not Vygotsky.
Luria
> > in his paper did not quote Vygotsky. Lucien Sève also attributed the
quote
> > to Luria. I added the first paragraph to the beginning and a paragraph
to
> > the end of the quote. I hope that will help.
> >
> > "Afin de sortir de ce cercle vicieux, Vygotski devait accomplir un
second
> > pas, non moindre quant a son importance théorique.
> > Il n'y a aucun espoir, disait-il, de trouver les sources de l'acte actif
et
> > libre dans les hauteurs de l'esprit ou dans les profondeurs du cerveau.
La
> > démarche idéaliste des phénoménologues est aussi désespérée que la
démarche
> > positiviste des naturalistes. Pour découvrir les sources de l'acte libre
et
> > actif, il faut sortir des limites de l'organisme et ce, non dans la
sphère
> > intime de l'esprit, mais dans les formes objectives de la vie sociale;
il
> > faut rechercher les sources de la conscience et de la liberté humaines
dans
> > l'histoire sociale de l'humanité. Pour trouver l'âme, il faut la perdre.
> > A cette époque, l'idée de se référer à l'histoire sociale pour résoudre
les
> > problèmes fondamentaux de la psychologie individuelle semblait
inconcevable
> > et dénuée de fondements. Seul le développement ultérieur de la
psychologie a
> > montré combien la voie choisie par Vygotski était juste" (Luria, 1966,
> > pp.96-97).
> >
> > "There is no hope of finding the sources of free action in the lofty
realms
> > of the mind or in the depths of the brain. The idealist approach of the
> > phenomenologists is as hopeless as the positive approach of the
naturalists.
> > To discover the sources of free action it is necessary to go outside the
> > limits of the organism, not into the intimate sphere of the mind, but
into
> > the objective forms of social life; it is necessary to seek the sources
of
> > human consciousness and freedom in the social history of humanity. To
find
> > the soul it is necessary to lose it"(Luria, 1966, pp.96-97).
> >
> > This quote appeared also in Lucien Sève's book: Man in Marxist theory
and
> > the psychology of personality, 1978/1969, p. 225.
> >
> > Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du Marxisme had published
excellent
> > articles on Psychology, Education, Semiology, Philosophy, Anthropology,
> > etc.by the leading Soviet intellectuals, from a Mraxist perspective.
Here
> > some examples:
> > Psychologie. (1966). Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du
Marxisme,
> > No. 51.
> > Education (L'). (1961). Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du
Marxisme,
> > 28.
> > Philosophie. (1962). Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du
Marxisme,
> > No. 33-34.
> > Sémiotique. (1974). Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du
Marxisme,No.
> > (81-84.
> > Conception marxiste de l'homme. (1965). Recherches Internationales à la
> > Lumière du Marxisme, No. 46.
> > Défintion et signifcation du concept de "pratique" dans la philosophie
de
> > Karl Marx. Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du Marxisme, No. 75.
> > IIyenkov, E. V. (1962). La dialectique de l'abstrait et du concret dans
le
> > Capital de Marx. Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du Marxisme,
No.
> > 33-34, pp. 99-158.
> > Ivanov, V. V., Lotman, I., Ouspenski, B., & Piatigorski, A. (1974).
Thèses
> > pour l'étude sémiotique des cultures. Recherches Interna-tionales à la
> > Lumière du Marxisme, No. 81-84, pp. 125-156.
> > Leontiev, A. N. (1961). Education et développement psychique. Recherches
> > Internationales à la Lumière du Marxisme, No. 28, pp. 3-33.
> > Leontiev, A. N. (1963). L'homme et la culture. Recherches
Internationales à
> > la Lumière du Marxisme, No. 46, pp. 47-67.
> > Luria, A. R. (1965). Le cerveau et le psychisme. Recherches
Internationales
> > à la Lumière du Marxisme, No. 46, pp. 26-46.
> > Luria, A. R. (1966). Vygotski et l'étude des fonctions psychiques
> > supérieures. Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du Marxisme, No.
51,
> > 93-103.
> > Elkonine, D. (1972). Le problème de la périodisation du développement
> > psychique chez l'enfant. Recherches Internationales à la lumière du
> > marxisme, 71-72, 157-180.
> > Stepanov, Y. S. (1974). Qu'est-ce la sémiotique? Recherches
Internationales
> > à la Lumière du Marxisme, No. 81-84, pp. 26-37.
> > Bronfenbrenner Urie. (1966). Le prix psychologique de la qualité et de
> > l'égalité en matière d'enseignement. Recherches Internationales à la
Lumière
> > du Marxisme, No. 51.
> > Klaus, G. (1974), "La pragmatique comme discipline de la théorie de la
> > connaissance", Recherches Internationales à la Lumière du Marxisme, 81,
pp
> > 75-124.
> >>From Mohamed Elhammoumi
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alfred Lang" <alfred.lang@psy.unibe.ch>
> > To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 3:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: Psychology and Marxism Updates
> >
> >
> >
> >>Andy and all,
> >>
> >>where do I find the quote and its further context?
> >>
> >>"To find the soul it is necessary to lose it."
> >>
> >>A remarkable sentence for a psychologist. All the more so since
> >>"finding the soul" is a sort of key idea in many mystical traditions
> >>and loosing it for the better of its fate a key idea in at least some
> >>Eastern traditions.
> >>
> >>While this sentence is just a chatch phrase Vygotksy's claim that "it
> >>is necessary to seek the sources of human consciousness and freedom
> >>in the social history of humanity", does look like a capsule
> >>statement of CHAT.
> >>
> >>Yet I would like to clear a problem remaining for me. In the
> >>sentence: "to discover the sources of free action [...] in the
> >>objective forms of social life", what is the Russian word translated
> >>with "objective"? Is it the Latin-derived term? If yes, what does it
> >>mean? If it refers to social life seen independent of how it is to be
> >>processed by the persons involved? Formulated as it is it seems to
> >>refer to the person-external world. But how could ever "free action"
> >>arise from person-independent facts?
> >>
> >>Best, Alfred
> >>
> >>--
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>Alfred Lang, Psychology, Univ. Bern, Switzerland ---
> >
> > alfred.lang@psy.unibe.ch
> >
> >>Website: http://www.psy.unibe.ch/ukp/langpapers/
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> There is no hope of finding the sources of free action in the lofty
> realms of the mind or in the depths of the brain. The idealist approach
> of the phenomenologists is as hopeless as the positive approach of the
> naturalists. To discover the sources of free action it is necessary to
> go outside the limits of the organism, not into the intimate sphere of
> the mind, but into the objective forms of social life; it is necessary
> to seek the sources of human consciousness and freedom in the social
> history of humanity. To find the soul it is necessary to lose it.
> LS Vygotsky
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