Paul suggested I post this private message to the list. I don';t know how
popular communist politics is to the list membership, but here goes...
>Elisa, Paul,
>
>I suggest you read Trotsky for an analysis of the social and material
>nature of the stalinist societies, which have recently rejoined the ranks
>of market capitalism. His most explicit writing on this was The
>Revolution Betrayed in 1937 (?) in which he described the Soviet Union as
>a "degenerated workers' state," which was not socialist. In the early
>1950s some trotskyists continued this analysis to characterize the newly
>formed "socialist" satellite states in Eastern Europe as "deformed
>workers' states" because capitalism had been abolished (by Stalin's use of
>the Red Army), but replaced by a non-democratic state bureaucracy. In
>other words, these countries had never experienced a workers
>revolution. Human history rarely follows a set script, there's lots of
>synthesis around familiar patterns and within historically determined
>constraints. Who could have predicted stalinism in the 19th century (or
>even during the Russian Revolution)? But in retrospect it makes sense
>that it happened. But please don't call it "socialist"!!! We haven't
>seen socialism yet.
>
>Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>I don't think that the continued subjugation of women in 20th century
>>socialist societies demonstrates that male exploitation of women is a
>>more fundamental relation of exploitation in capitalist society but it
>>very well demonstrates that the kind of socialism that was practiced in
>>these countries didn't really transform the family relation either, as
>>far as I know: the nuclear family certainly didn't go out of existence
>>and Marx and Engels saw that as the primary locus of the exploitation of
>>women in capitalist society. These socialist states however were marred
>>in a number of ways. I see the 20th century socialist experience in
>>terms of the international struggle between capitalist and socialist
>>states. Perhaps the time wasn't ripe yet as Rosa Luxemburg thought, and
>>the formation of the Leninist Party that morphed into the socialist
>>totalitarian state, led to its final demise. More speculation.
>>
>>I don't know if this clarifies my position about the position concerning
>>the subjugation of women in capitalist society. There is certainly a lot
>>of room for thought.
>>
>>Paul H. Dillon
>>
>>
>>But it seems that historical marxist societies persisted in
>>discriminating women. And that non-capitalist societies still
>>discriminate or subjugate women (and have done so). It seems that the
>>subjugation of women is prior to class division, it is more archaic,
>>primitive, atavistic. And even more universal than class opression.
>>>
>>>
>>>Elisa Sayeg
>>><mailto:cyborg@uol.com.br>cyborg@uol.com.br
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sat Jul 01 2000 - 01:00:35 PDT