-----Original Message-----
From: Rachel Heckert [mailto:heckertkrs@juno.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 8:18 PM
To: ematusov@UDel.Edu
Subject: Re: Tutchev in English
Hi Eugene and list,
I think that you're right about "identity" being a new term. I remember
that when I was young (oh, so many years ago) the term was just beginning
to come into use, I think from Erikson, as in "identity crisis" - the
idea was, an adolescent has no firm sense of self but must build one by
differentiating him/herself from others, especially parents. (What have
Americans got against parents?) Without an "identity" one feels lost
and insecure, "existentialist" angst (which was also very big then). If
you feel your "identity" getting unstuck, you have an "identity crisis"
and go around distraught asking yourself, "who am I really?" (Which
sounds a little like what the psychologists call depersonalization
disorder :-) It's an "individualist" term as opposed to a "collectivist"
type.
Lichnost just comes from the word for "face" as in "unique quality of
*this* individual." "Identity" and "identity crisis" started out as
things that you only had if you were middle-class and college-educated.
It proved you weren't an uneducated, unthinking clod. ;-)
Rachel
On Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:53:48 -0500 "Eugene Matusov" <ematusov@udel.edu>
writes:
> Hi Tatiana and everybody--
>
> I struggle in translation of the Russian term "lichnost''" in
> English and
> the English term "identity" in Russian. I wonder if the problem is
> that
> these terms are in a deep conflict with each other. It can be
> evident in the
> following statements:
>
> English
> "Assume your identity," "idenetity crisis," "identitity confusion,"
> "his
> identity is..."
>
> Russian
> "Each lichnost' is a Universe," "unique lichnost,'" "he is
> lichnost'!" "cult
> lichnosti"
>
> The closest translation of the English term "identity" in Russian I
> can
> think of is "lichina" but it sounds too negative (almost like a
> mask). The
> closest translation of the Russian term "lischnost'" is the English
> word
> "personality" but it sounds too mechanical (as an assembly of
> traits).
>
> I wonder if the difference between these terms reflect differences in
> historical experiences of the communites. I wonder if the notion of
> idenity
> is a Western middle-class phenomenon emerging in 50s associated with
> middle
> class style of life (based on the ideology of having choices and
> being in
> control). I have read several studies from my friend Bill Penuel
> where
> African-American teenagers from poor neighborhood reject the notion
> of
> identity,
>
> …at YOUTHPOWER / they know me because I’m YOUTH/ I’m a YOUTH/
> they want to get a YOUTH perspective/
>
> …the only reason I FELT they felt/ they knew ROBERT/ because Robert
> was a
> YOUTH/
> they want to get a OBJECTIVE from a youth/
>
> that’s how they PUT me in that position/
> that’s how they KNOW me/…
> how do I say it/ you know/
> um SIGNIFY with me whatever/ what HAVE you/
>
> but when IN the Hill/ it’s just like I’m ROBERT/
> I'm not Robert from the HILL/
> I'm not Robert from SANDY Ave/
> I'm not Robert from the COMMUNITY Center/
> I'm not Robert who's EIGHTEEN years old/
> I'm ROBERT/ and that's how they KNOW me/
>
> The slogan written on a T-shirt worn by a young African American
> woman: "The
> identity I wear the best is my first and last identity: human being."
>
> These all sounds so Russian!
>
> What do you think?
>
> Eugene
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sazonova [mailto:sazon@kursknet.ru]
> > Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 11:25 PM
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: Re: Tutchev in English
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Rachel,
> >
> > Thank you very much for mentioning Antonio Damasio whose books
> make really
> > a very interesting reading. I also haven't read his last one, but
> I read
> > many refferences to it and they are very contrudictory. his
> understanding
> > of many things is close to mine and I'm looking forward to read
> his new
> > book.
> > I don't think that Americans have no "dusha", but I agree that
> they have a
> > different "sense of self". And I think everybody has a peculiar
> sence of
> > self to some extend, only cultural differences make this
> differencies much
> > deeper.
> > Anna Wierzbicka in her article gives a linguistic semantic
> analisys of
> > those notions and she refers much to literature and high poetry.
> This is
> > only one side of the moon. And the back side is what
> psycholinguists would
> > study as an individual meaning of the word/ here dusha will be
> paralleled
> > with character, personality and in some contexts will nave even
> negative
> > implications: in real life situations a man is supposed to have no
> dusha
> > when he is at work ( in the meaning that one should be deprived of
> > emotions) and etc.
> > Funny enough that Mike's wife calls Russian thongs she is
> displeased with.
> >
> > Tatiana
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > Îò: Rachel Heckert <heckertkrs@juno.com>
> > Êîìó: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Òåìà: Re: Tutchev in English
> > Äàòà: 2 ìàðòà 2000 ã. 6:32
> >
> > Tatiana,
> >
> > You are absolutely right about "dusha - soul" (Russian) and "mind"
> > (English) not being the same thing. Anna Wierzbicka wrote a very
> > revealing piece about how our ideas about "person" are socially
> > constructed, and points out that the Anglo-American idea of "mind"
> is not
> > only peculiar to English-speakers, but is basically a development
> of the
> > last two centuries. (She also talks about French "ame" and German
> "seele
> > (mistranslation of which she says has created an inaccurate idea
> of what
> > Freud was really saying).
> >
> > She also quotes extensively the Russian immigrant poet
> Tsvetayeva, and
> > particularly relevant here: "There are things which cannot be
> thought in
> > another language." (Being bilingual/cultural myself, I can give
> my own
> > anecdotal evidence that this is true.)
> >
> > "The original article is in "American Anthropologist" vol. 91-1989
> and
> > she later expnanded it into a book chapter in "Semantics, Culture
> and
> > Cognition" (Oxford, 1992) which examines various concepts in
> European
> > languages, how they differ, and the hazards posed by translating
> > directly.
> >
> > One of the less complimentary things I have heard about Americans
> from
> > Russian friends is the puzzled (and sometimes dismissive)
> statement that
> > "They have no dusha" - i.e. Americans have a very different "sense
> of
> > self" than other nationalities. Another interesting phenomenon -
> to me,
> > anyway - is the whole "the brain is a computer" business, which is
> based
> > on the idea that being human is a matter of ratiocination and
> > logic-chopping, divorced from emotion and volition. Russian (and
> classic
> > Hebrew/Yiddish usage) has a separate term for this activity of the
> human
> > mind.
> > An interesting take on this from a neuropsychologist is Antonio
> Damasio's
> > "Descartes' Error" which examines the hypothesis that emotion is
> > necessary for even reasoning to function. (He just published
> another
> > book, which I haven't read yet, but I have it from him via e-mail
> that
> > it's an extension of the earlier one).
> >
> > Comments from Eugene, Tatiana, other Russian-speakers?
> >
> > Rachel Heckert
> >
> > BTW Will you guys please quit flaming each other? I'm just
> catching up
> > after several days away, and the last round of posts has left me
> > wondering just what's gotten into everybody.
> >
> > On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:30:47 +0300 "sazonova" <sazon@kursknet.ru>
> writes:
> > > Mike, you are absolutly wright. And its not a coincidence.
> > > In my translation I ment "soul' first of all and the word
> "mind" was
> > > introduced specially for xmca-readers.
> > > And now I'm struggling with the translation of the expression
> "body
> > > - mind
> > > problem" (I want to make a reveiw in my book) which somehow
> > > corresponds to
> > > what is known in Russian philosophical tradition as the problem
> of
> > > body and
> > > soul. When I say "somehow correspods" because English word
> "mind" is
> > > not
> > > the same as Russian word "soul". And I recall the XMCA
> discussion on
> > > the
> > > differences between Westen and Easten tradition in science.
> > > Tatiana
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > > Îò: Mike Cole <mcole@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > Êîìó: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Òåìà: Tutchev in English
> > > > Äàòà: 1 ìàðòà 2000 ã. 3:37
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Look at the title of this talk! I had just written Eugene
> about the
> > > > problems of translation from russian-english where the word,
> soul,
> > > > is a fine example. And then this appeared on the screen!
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > >GARY T. MARX
> > > > >Emeritus Professor
> > > > >Massachusetts Institute of Technology
> > > > >"Windows into the Soul: Surveillance and Society
> > > > >in an Age of High Technology"
> > > >
> > > > sure, its a coincidence.
> > > > mike
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
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> > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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> > ----------
>
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