[Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history

[mike cole]

Thanks, Rod   --  The relation of propaganda and education.

I was writing  about what I claimed education IS, not what it should be!
Source of confusion identified.
Concerning oughts, i am personally very sympathetic to your views as
intervening notes will confirm. The history of communication in 10 easy
weeks. I can dig out my old notes when I get to the office and send the
mimeographed outline the students used with the main points listed in an
orderly fashion (mimeograph? what's that?).  :-))

The question I keep asking is why, given our views about what education
"ought to be", has schooling always, with rare and privileged exception,
just what it was about in Ur 4-5000 years ago?? Why doesn't it go away? Why
do we wring our hands about children failing in schools when schools were
initially designed to be sure that a bunch of those who attend fail?

mike

On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> I was responding to your question, 'what is the difference between
> education and propaganda ...?' with the probably oversimplistic suggestion
> that whereas propaganda is about propagating (reproducing) an existing set
> of beliefs/knowledge - evangelising the Catholic faith, for example -
> education may (should?) be more about encouraging people to go beyond what
> you already know. The 'you' in my message is not Mike Cole but a generic
> you!
>
> All the best,
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: 17 January 2015 21:16
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history
>
> Rod-- I am flumuxed by your message:
>
> Here is what I wrote:
>
> Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the
> great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street.
>
> A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be
> fascinating to read.
> As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal
> decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case.  At the
> level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have
> some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for
> us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating?
>
> When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to
> distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they
> are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history
> of propaganda.
>
> So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students
> and I often had difficulty distinguishing them.
> ---------------------
>
> I really do not know what you mean. Sorry to be dense.
> mike
>
> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:50 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Mike - is it too simplistic to say that education is about leading out
> > (divergence) whereas propaganda is about leading in (convergence)? If
> > you know before you begin exactly what you want your students to end
> > up knowing and believing you may be more engaged in propaganda than
> education.
> >
> > Rod
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> > Sent: 17 January 2015 02:46
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history
> >
> > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the
> > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street.
> >
> > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be
> > fascinating to read.
> > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a
> > Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case.
> > At the level of social interaction where we are professionally
> > involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why
> > else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is
> NOT propagating?
> >
> > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to
> > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course
> > they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it,
> > the history of propaganda.
> >
> > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My
> > students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them.
> >
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Philip,
> > >
> > > Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally
> > > with the mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment],
> > > which I do
> > not
> > > reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the
> > > one
> > who
> > > produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of
> > others,
> > > and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be
> > influenced).
> > >
> > > My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political
> > > propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda
> > > as
> > well.
> > > Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour
> > > encourager les autres."
> > >
> > > In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see
> > > rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally
> > > received; nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all
> perception.
> > >
> > > Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the
> > > list to correct me on this. :)
> > >
> > > Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary!
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > > Annalisa
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an
> > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> > ________________________________
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> --
> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an
> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
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-- 
It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object
that creates history. Ernst Boesch.