[Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought --

[Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>]

I am returning to Sweden in the Spring, briefly, and Monica and I are
finding a way to collect this data even though the "data collection" phase
of the project is now, officially, finished.

Yes, it is hard to imagine and I would not have believed it if I had not
seen it myself.

We are having these Swedish preschools offer guidance, training and models
for various aspects of a preschool that a group of people here in Brooklyn
are trying to start in conjunction with a Promise Neighborhoods
organization.  We'll see what happens.  I have been thinking, though, that
this type of practice MAY require the creation of a type of community that
is not possible unless you keep families out of the process -- and that
this will not work in the US -- but this is just my thinking lately and I
could be entirely wrong.

Actually I am feeling since I returned that I can not imagine widespread
high-quality public preschool in the US, because preschools are at the
intersection of family and state, and we are relatively good at keeping
these two separate -- .

Beth


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:40 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Beth-- I look forward to seeing a careful report of the practices that you
> are describing. It remains difficult to
> imagine a one year old whose language production skills we are used to
> think of as limited engaging in the kinds of interactions you describe. Are
> you planning to replicate this kind of pedagogical practice in Brooklyn?
> mike
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you for this comment, Larry -- here is the Tarulli, and the one you
> > mention with Robert Lecusay -- Beth
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I am remembering the discussion of playworlds and the zo-ped as helping
> > the
> > > adults *grow up* within socratic dialogues with children.
> > > An article was referenced which I am would like to read that was
> > referenced
> > > in the article:
> > >
> > > Cheyne, J. A and Tarulli, D (1999) Dialogue ,difference, and voice in
> the
> > > zone of proximal development. Theory and Psychology, 9, 5-28.
> > >
> > > If it is possible to send a cop.y I would appreciate this..
> > >
> > > The exploration of desire and motivation and the adult being
> transformed
> > > [and developing] within the intersubjective engagement [and enactment]
> in
> > > the zo-ped is what I find fascinating. This depth of *care and concern*
> > for
> > > the child's *voice* moving from the magisterial TO the socratic voice
> > seems
> > > a radical [going to the root] of the zo-ped.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Larry
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is very very helpful, Artin.  Monica and I are both about to fly
> > to
> > > > the US, me to return her for a few month, so we will have to discuss
> > and
> > > > respond in a couple weeks.   Thank you! Beth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Beth and Monica--
> > > > >
> > > > > Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I
> > > don't
> > > > > remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is
> > > redundant
> > > > > or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it..
> > > > >
> > > > > In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to
> > development
> > > of
> > > > > symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the
> > > > > motivation for play.  A shared conviction among theorists like
> Freud,
> > > > > Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense
> of
> > an
> > > > > affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud),
> to
> > > > > develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to
> > > > anticipate
> > > > > future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.)
> >  I
> > > > > believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young
> > > children
> > > > > as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with
> > > children
> > > > > who had learning disabilities.  Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about
> > these
> > > > > issues together before too.  Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of
> > > play
> > > > > in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this
> > > idea
> > > > > too.  So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the
> > connection
> > > > > between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will
> be
> > > > > easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of
> personal
> > > > > significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize
> that
> > > > > experience.
> > > > >
> > > > > A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented.  In
> > the
> > > > > 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue.  She argued
> > and
> > > > > showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a
> familiar
> > > > > personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an
> > > infant's
> > > > > pretending to drink from an empty bottle.  Greta called this
> > > > > de-contextualization.  With age, a de-contextualized event gets
> > > > > transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and
> > > > > opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts.  In
> > > other
> > > > > words, something can be represented either through a very
> structured
> > > toy
> > > > > or not using any object at all.  So, if we see symbolization taking
> > > place
> > > > > in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to
> > > > symbolic
> > > > > development.  (One example I can think of from the arts is how
> > > > > representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from
> > > tree
> > > > > figures to geometric shapes...)
> > > > >
> > > > > Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and
> > > symbolic
> > > > > development will be easier to see if we understand the connection
> > > between
> > > > > play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there
> > is
> > > a
> > > > > developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get
> > > > > represented in play.
> > > > >
> > > > > All the best, ag
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote:
> > > > > > We apologize for the delay responding:
> > > > > > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the
> > > suggestions
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response
> ...
> > > > > > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much
> from
> > > > > > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working
> as
> > > from
> > > > > > observations of teaching and learning:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some
> > dichotomies
> > > > > that
> > > > > > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content --
> but
> > > also
> > > > > > between symbolic thought and play.  So, to the many of you who
> said
> > > > this:
> > > > > > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us
> > try a
> > > > > > different approach to this dilemma.  Peg: Mash up -- yes!  But
> > before
> > > > > they
> > > > > > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator
> > > between
> > > > > > art
> > > > > > and play when she developed playworlds.  Discussions with Kiyo
> > > > (Mizasaki)
> > > > > > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to
> this
> > > > > > question.  So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman:
> Learning
> > > to
> > > > > > Draw
> > > > > > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the
> > way
> > > > > they
> > > > > > work with the children.  This is based in what they do in their
> art
> > > > > > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an
> > > > atelierista
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > the Reggio Emilia preschools).  They spend lots and lots of time
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the
> > > children
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping
> > them
> > > to
> > > > > > look.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the
> > > > > children
> > > > > > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from
> > > meaning,
> > > > is
> > > > > > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic
> > > representation
> > > > > > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc.  The
> > > > teachers
> > > > > > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is
> > careful
> > > > > > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about
> > how
> > > > to
> > > > > > represent what they see.  The bus is long -- this is why we have
> a
> > > long
> > > > > > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that
> > they
> > > > > rode
> > > > > > that AM!) here -- ).  The bus is what color?  What paint will you
> > > use?
> > > > > >  They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere
> with
> > > this
> > > > > > process.  If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is
> about
> > > > color
> > > > > > (not lines) then they have a thick brush.  Also, the emphasis is
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to
> > draw.
> > > >  In
> > > > > > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that
> > the
> > > > > > stick
> > > > > > (picture) is a horse (bus).  (The children really do shine at
> this
> > > > > moment,
> > > > > > it is wild!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can
> > > make
> > > > a
> > > > > >  blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar
> > with
> > > > > > pivots.  The  lesson was not actually about painting.  Or, it
> was,
> > > but
> > > > > the
> > > > > > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was,
> > and
> > > > it
> > > > > > was a lesson about representation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this
> > > > > > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos
> > laminated
> > > on
> > > > > > them.  In the block area they and their friends -- represented by
> > > > toilet
> > > > > > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make.  When the
> two
> > > > year
> > > > > > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could
> SEE
> > > > that
> > > > > > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the
> > > responses
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our
> IRB
> > > does
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > allow it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) !  Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between
> > you
> > > > all
> > > > > > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our
> development
> > in
> > > > > > relation to this problem!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Beth and Monica
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha
> > > > > > <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Message from Francine:
> > > > > >> Beth,
> > > > > >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you
> describe.
> > > Over
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was
> deemed
> > > > > >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There
> was a
> > > > time
> > > > > >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees
> > were
> > > > > >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the
> USA
> > > had
> > > > to
> > > > > >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained
> > > > > >> credibility.
> > > > > >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling
> and
> > > > then
> > > > > >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of
> Derrida
> > > as
> > > > a
> > > > > >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to
> have a
> > > > > >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of
> the
> > > > > >> towering
> > > > > >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of
> > the
> > > > > >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze).
> > > > > >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object
> > > > substitutions
> > > > > >> at
> > > > > >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of
> > grass
> > > > as
> > > > > >> a
> > > > > >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious
> > > > > >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year
> of
> > > > life,
> > > > > >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget.
> > > > > >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real
> lock,
> > > on a
> > > > > >> door
> > > > > >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the
> > > > toddler
> > > > > >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking
> > the
> > > > > >> door?
> > > > > >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a
> > > > > >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional
> gestures
> > > such
> > > > > >> as
> > > > > >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic'
> > function.Certainly,
> > > > > >> naming
> > > > > >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be
> evidence.From
> > > your
> > > > > >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door'
> and
> > > > > >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were
> > leading
> > > > the
> > > > > >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided
> > > pretend
> > > > > >> play
> > > > > >> that was scaffolded by the adults.
> > > > > >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object
> > > substitutions
> > > > > >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six
> children
> > > from
> > > > > >> 14
> > > > > >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation
> at
> > > 14
> > > > > >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her
> lips
> > as
> > > > if
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> drink  (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible
> > > > substance').
> > > > > >> The
> > > > > >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos'
> definition
> > of
> > > > > >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe)
> > > with
> > > > an
> > > > > >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded.
> > > > > >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in
> Amsterdam,
> > > at
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and
> > soon
> > > > > >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware
> of
> > > the
> > > > > >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not
> > > associated
> > > > > >> with
> > > > > >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a
> book
> > > > > >> titled
> > > > > >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age
> > one
> > > > > >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play).
> > > > > >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research
> that
> > > > Bert
> > > > > >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship
> > > > between
> > > > > >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a
> very
> > > > > >> narrow
> > > > > >> review of just Activity Theory based studies.
> > > > > >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you
> get
> > > it
> > > > > >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of
> > > > > >> Chicago. I
> > > > > >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200
> > > > > >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought --
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in
> > this
> > > > > >> chain
> > > > > >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been
> hard
> > at
> > > > > >> work
> > > > > >> > thinking and reading in response!
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before --
> > > > > >> Francine,
> > > > > >> can
> > > > > >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much
> of
> > > it
> > > > of
> > > > > >> it,
> > > > > >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language
> > > > development,
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very
> > > interesting
> > > > > >> talk,
> > > > > >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was
> > > inconclusive
> > > > > >> (a
> > > > > >> > 2013 literature review – ).
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following
> > dilemma:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are
> generally
> > > > > >> suspicious
> > > > > >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write
> > > some
> > > > of
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that
> > > > > >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that
> > > > supports
> > > > > >> a
> > > > > >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze
> before
> > > > > >> Piaget
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass
> > > compared
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that
> > > (because
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young
> > > > children,
> > > > > >> or
> > > > > >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of
> > > > showing
> > > > > >> us
> > > > > >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not
> right.
> > > They
> > > > > >> show
> > > > > >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one
> > year
> > > > olds
> > > > > >> are
> > > > > >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give
> > hour-long
> > > > > >> > presentations to us : ).
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade
> of
> > > > grass
> > > > > >> was
> > > > > >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw
> > > > inside.
> > > > > >> They
> > > > > >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my
> > own
> > > > > >> just-two
> > > > > >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a
> > > year,
> > > > > >> could
> > > > > >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to
> have
> > an
> > > > > >> idea
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think
> more
> > > > about
> > > > > >> why I
> > > > > >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many
> > children
> > > in
> > > > > >> my
> > > > > >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it
> come
> > > to
> > > > > >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I
> knew
> > > > really
> > > > > >> well
> > > > > >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the
> > > > relationship
> > > > > >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what
> > we
> > > > are
> > > > > >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that
> when
> > we
> > > > > >> wrote
> > > > > >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and
> longitudinal
> > > > > >> experiment
> > > > > >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not
> develop
> > :
> > > )
> > > > .
> > > > > >> Of
> > > > > >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably
> not
> > > > right?
> > > > > >> So
> > > > > >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of
> symbolic
> > > > > >> thought,
> > > > > >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto – hmmm.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey
> would
> > be
> > > > > >> much
> > > > > >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without
> > defending
> > > > > >> what
> > > > > >> we
> > > > > >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are
> > > more
> > > > > >> capable
> > > > > >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very,
> > > very
> > > > > >> young,
> > > > > >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts
> > (in
> > > > > >> which
> > > > > >> we
> > > > > >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really
> the
> > > > > >> competent
> > > > > >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about
> > after
> > > > our
> > > > > >> > reading of VYgotsky on play.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky – It may be
> > less
> > > > > >> about
> > > > > >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their
> > > emphasis
> > > > > >> on
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > arts?  Or maybe it’s both?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha <
> > > > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > > > >> >wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha:
> > > > > >> > > Beth,
> > > > > >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for
> > > > > >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological).
> > > > > >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind
> Preschool
> > > > > >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans
> > these
> > > > > >> four
> > > > > >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of
> > > > > >> Chicago.While
> > > > > >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all
> > four
> > > > > >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach
> > the
> > > > > >> children to
> > > > > >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much
> > > potential
> > > > > >> here
> > > > > >> for
> > > > > >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in
> > > learning
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> use
> > > > > >> > > symbol systems.
> > > > > >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200
> > > > > >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought --
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is
> > helpful.
> > > > > >> And
> > > > > >> yes,
> > > > > >> > > > this is what we are thinking about.  Your response makes
> me
> > > > think
> > > > > >> more
> > > > > >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working
> with
> > > are
> > > > > >> posing
> > > > > >> > > to
> > > > > >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child
> > development
> > > > ...
> > > > > >> I
> > > > > >> think
> > > > > >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my
> > > > question,
> > > > > >> above.
> > > > > >> > > >  I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then
> we
> > > need
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> ask
> > > > > >> > > why
> > > > > >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly
> > > efficient
> > > > at
> > > > > >> what
> > > > > >> > > it
> > > > > >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment.
> > > Thank
> > > > > >> you!
> > > > > >> > >  Beth
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha <
> > > > > >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > > > >> > > >wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha:
> > > > > >> > > > > Beth,
> > > > > >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend
> > play
> > > > > >> (such
> > > > > >> as
> > > > > >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a  horse) are the pivot
> > for
> > > > > >> separating
> > > > > >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture
> with
> > a
> > > > > >> non-replica
> > > > > >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using
> > > pictorial
> > > > > >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals
> in
> > > > > >> drawings, i.
> > > > > >> > > e.,
> > > > > >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and
> > > > > >> numerical
> > > > > >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study
> > that
> > > > > >> documented
> > > > > >> > > this
> > > > > >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused
> > on
> > > > > >> specific
> > > > > >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of
> Chicago
> > > > > >> > > 1991documented
> > > > > >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend
> > > play
> > > > (a
> > > > > >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.)
> > > Isn't
> > > > > >> that
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand
> > for
> > > > > >> another
> > > > > >> > > > > (re-present another)???
> > > > > >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines?
> > > > > >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200
> > > > > >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought --
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing
> > > that
> > > > > >> play
> > > > > >> > > allows
> > > > > >> > > > > for
> > > > > >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have
> > an
> > > > idea
> > > > > >> what
> > > > > >> > > this
> > > > > >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done
> > is
> > > > > >> fine!
> > > > > >> Beth
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica <
> > > > > >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth,
> > > > > >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the
> > > > > >> relationship
> > > > > >> > > between
> > > > > >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for
> research
> > > to
> > > > > >> > > > > substantiate? Are
> > > > > >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of
> > > > > >> research?
> > > > > >> The
> > > > > >> > > path
> > > > > >> > > > > is
> > > > > >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's
> thoughts
> > > > > >> encompassed
> > > > > >> > > > > larger
> > > > > >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to
> research
> > on
> > > > > >> this
> > > > > >> topic
> > > > > >> > > > > can be
> > > > > >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my
> > > > experience
> > > > > >> in
> > > > > >> > > hunting
> > > > > >> > > > > it
> > > > > >> > > > > > > down :)
> > > > > >> > > > > > > --The other Monica
> > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > > > >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth
> > > > Ferholt
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM
> > > > > >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought --
> > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > >> > > > > relationship
> > > > > >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being
> > > > challenged
> > > > > >> by
> > > > > >> > > Swedish
> > > > > >> > > > > > > preschool teachers.  Is there an experiment that
> shows
> > > > > >> Vygotsky was
> > > > > >> > > > > correct
> > > > > >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship?  We can't
> find
> > > any!
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Tanks,
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth
> > > > > >> > > > > > > --
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > >> > > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > --
> > > > > >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > >> > > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > >> > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > --
> > > > > >> > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > >> > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > >> > > > School of Education
> > > > > >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > --
> > > > > >> > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > >> > Assistant Professor
> > > > > >> > School of Education
> > > > > >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D
> > > > > Professor Emeritus,
> > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago
> > > > > College of Education M/C 147
> > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St.
> > > > > Chicago, IL 60607
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > School of Education
> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > >
> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Beth Ferholt
> > Assistant Professor
> > School of Education
> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >
> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >
>



-- 
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
School of Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816
Status: O