Re: VS: [xmca] Finland

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Greg,
This question of *respect* is an interesting topic.
I have read that it is more difficult in Finland to become a teacher than a
doctor? Is this true.?
That difference if true would indicate a significant difference in the
cultural-historical  value and virtue of becoming a teacher.
I also noticed at the AREA conference in Vancouver that very few public
school teachers were in attendance. It seemed that many university
professors were exploring topics and themes ABOUT teaching in public
schools but few actual public school teachers were participating or leading
discussions.
I wonder if in Finland more public school teachers would be in attendance
at a similar conference?
The comment that teachers in North America focus on *empirical* ways of
understanding and have little understanding of the genesis of
*theoretical* ways of constructing knowledge also seems relevant.
I am circling around this topic of *teacher respect* and how central
*education* is in comparison to medicine, psychology, etc.
It seems education in Finland is seen as a complex and valuable and
recognized profession, [with autonomy and trust of the participants]
whereas in North America teaching is less valued and lumped in with other
public sector  types of employment [which are devalued as dependent on
private enterprise]

Andy has posted a very interesting article which historically critiques the
notion of *dependency*.
As he mentions [referencing Nancy Fraser] the understanding of *dependency*
exists in many different REGISTERS.
I wonder if education and public school teaching are not as respected as
medicine, law, psychology, etc. because public school teachers  are being
registered as dependent positions, dependent on private enterprise.

What I appreciate within this listserv is the recognition that education
and learning receive as complex developmental practices.
Larry



On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 12:35 PM, <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:

> But what you say Andrew would require that we respect teachers - something
> that much of this country seems hard pressed to do, consider all the uproar
> around teachers salaries. Certainly some (much?) stems from strong
> anti-union sentiment,
> Greg
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 16, 2013, at 9:44 AM, Andrew Babson <ababson@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > I thought I would follow up on this, especially re Peter's post just
> > earlier about Bill Gates' influence on education "reform". It also seems
> > from Bruce's original post that I may have missed an earlier discussion
> > about Finnish society.
> >
> > Yesterday in class, we got into *Finnish Lessons, *and according to the
> > book it's clear that the Finnish model is very different than what Gates
> > and his ilk are building. For one, testing and assessment are put in
> their
> > proper perspective. Because teachers are taught to consider themselves as
> > experts and researchers of their own profession, data are welcomed but
> > scrutinized and used fittingly. In other words, the data serves them and
> > their students, not the other way around--- a very Deweyan approach.
> > Teachers are given the autonomy and the professional respect to do this,
> > and they are not pitted against each other, which contributes to mutual
> > trust. They seem to be comfortable sharing knowledge with and learning
> from
> > their colleagues.
> >
> > We can then ask why this approach and that of Gates and the "global
> > education reform movement (GERM)", as Sahlberg calls it, diverge so
> > drastically. Why not take a hint from Finnish educators and students, who
> > have established a long-term record of success?
> >
> > Among many reasons for this divergence, it needs to be highlighted that
> the
> > Finnish model is not easily or quickly replicable, let alone measurable.
> It
> > is a cultural artifact, an outgrowth of shared values and practices,
> chief
> > among them cooperation, respect, and trust. To further illustrate: one of
> > my students worked directly for Arne Duncan at the DOE for three years,
> and
> > said that although the Finnish model was explored, Duncan et al.
> determined
> > that only classroom-based pedagogical procedures could be replicated
> here.
> > Now, you can guess how skeptical we in this newsgroup might be about that
> > approach, considering how much education happens outside of the classroom
> > in Finland, and the above point that you can't import, a la carte,
> > sociocultural dynamics involved in classroom pedagogy.
> >
> > So, the Gates/GERM approach begs us to wonder what if about all of this
> > money spent on "reform". What if it had been spent on building and
> > implementing a 30 year plan to 1) transform the status of teachers into
> > experts who collaborate with other experts, and 2) apply the Vygotskian
> > principle of balancing autonomy and support to the entire system? Again,
> > it's not like I think we here in the USA don't have it in us to learn
> from
> > the Finns (after all, as Sahlberg points out, they took a lot inspiration
> > from US educational research and practice). Not to be simplistic, but I
> > still think it mostly goes back, as I mentioned before, to political
> will.
> > Although habits and dispositions (and by extension, "cultures") are hard
> to
> > change, they can be changed with enough motivation and time.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Andrew Babson <ababson@umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi XMCA'ers, and thanks Bruce for bringing up this topic. I assigned
> >> Finnish Lessons for one of my classes, and we just started this past
> Monday
> >> so your post is timely. Once we get into the book, I'll share some
> further
> >> thoughts in this thread. Rauno, I appreciate your historical insights on
> >> Finland (and Leif, interesting to know about trends in Sweden).
> >>
> >> It's galling to realize that the major thing, really, standing in the
> way
> >> of solving so many social problems in democracies is political
> will---i.e.,
> >> not because we don't know what to do, or that we don't have the money
> to do
> >> it, but because advocacy hasn't been organized or passionate enough to
> make
> >> it happen. It's good to see positive examples like Finland's education
> >> turnaround, generations in the making.
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> Andrew Babson, Ph.D.
> >> Lecturer, Graduate School of Education
> >> University of Pennsylvania
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Leif Strandberg <
> >> leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Good Luck Finland...
> >>>
> >>> don't do what we have done... a massive support to private schools
> >>> ("private" is an euphemism... for s.c. risk capitalism)
> >>>
> >>> and the result is segregation and bad quality
> >>>
> >>> Leif
> >>> Sweden
> >>> 2 jul 2013 kl. 18.49 skrev Rauno Huttunen:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>>
> >>>> Pasi Sahlberg is respected educational scientist in Finland. He knows
> >>>> what he is talking about.
> >>>>
> >>>> In 50th and 60th there was big debate in Finland concerning grand
> school
> >>>> reform. Existing school system was reproducing unequality. Finally
> party
> >>>> called "Maaseudun puolue" (Agrarian Party) agreed to work together
> with
> >>>> social democrats and communists in order to plan and execute of a
> grand
> >>>> school reform which would guarantee every child equal opportunities in
> >>>> educational system. Right wing parties gave heavy resistance but
> school
> >>>> reform was executed.
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually I am personally perfect example of this new Finnish
> elementary
> >>>> school system. I have working class background and my school success
> in
> >>>> lower grades was poor. In old school system I would have never make
> it to
> >>>> "Lyseo" (high school/gymansium/college) and university. I had only
> some
> >>>> distant relatives who make it to Lyseo and only one who make it to
> >>>> university.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now we have to fight for our school system and not let private schools
> >>>> run over the well working public school system.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rauno Huttunen
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________**__________
> >>>> Lähettäjä: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> >>>> k&#228;ytt&#228;j&#228;n Bruce Robinson [bruce@dolphy.eclipse.co.uk]
> >>>> puolesta
> >>>> Lähetetty: 2. heinäkuuta 2013 19:16
> >>>> Vastaanottaja: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> Aihe: [xmca] Finland
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello xmcaers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Following the recent discussion on Finnish culture, you might be
> >>>> interested in this interview about the Finnish education system and
> `why
> >>>> it is so successful from today's Guardian. There's some interesting
> >>>> speculation about the relationship between relative equality and the
> >>>> education system.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/**education/2013/jul/01/**
> >>>> education-michael-gove-**finland-gcse<
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2013/jul/01/education-michael-gove-finland-gcse
> >
> >>>>
> >>>> Bruce R
> >>>> ______________________________**____________
> >>>> _____
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>>> ______________________________**____________
> >>>> _____
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________**____________
> >>> _____
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >
>
>