RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis" (timeo Vygotskii et dona ferentem)

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Larry,

I will wonder together, because the Russian word translated as "structure" in this case is not "struktura" (структура), but "stroenie" (строение), that can be translated also as "construction" or " building"... "Семический анализ есть единственный адекватный метод изучения системного и смыслового *строения* сознания". (In MIA Translation: “Semiotic analysis is the only adequate method for the study of the systemic and semantic *structure* of consciousness.” "Строение (n) [stroenie] = n. building, construction; structure; texture" compare with "структура [struktura] n. structure, building; something created from a number of interconnecting parts; manner in which something is constructed; setup, arrangement, organization". Returning in time, there was another programatic, but not realized, propose from Vygotsky, in his notes from 1929, later published in 1986, in Russia, by A. Puzirey, with the title "Concrete human psychology". In those notes the author talk about a "constructive method" (Конструктивный метод). This kind of method, would not "analize" processes, but "construct" the own processes in order to understand it better. I have Portuguese and Russian versions with me high now... But this notes were published in English as "Vygotsky (1989) Concrete Human Psychology. In Soviet Psychology, v. 17, n. 2."  In Russian: "Конструктивный метод имеет 2 смысла: 1) изучает не естествен­ ные структуры, а конструкции, 2) *не анализирует* [ne analizuruet], а *конструирует* [konstruiruet] про­цесс (contra метод застижения врасплох — анализ, тахистоскоп; contra систематический метод вюрцбуржцев). Но познавательная кон­ струкция в эксперименте соответствует реальной конструкции самого процесса. Это основной принцип."

Thank you very much.Achilles. > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:57:30 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis" (timeo	Vygotskii et dona ferentem)
> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 
> How do others *understand* the word *shapes* used in the phrase *shapes of
> consciousness* which can be *traced* historically?
> 
> Then understanding Vygotsky, Kant, Hegel, as *shaping consciousness*  views
> their projects not as locating some pre-existing underlying structure that
> exists transcendent to the temporal, but an active "shaping* of
> consciousness which becomes expressed within emerging (and
> sedimented) *ways of life*.
> These ways of life can be reflected on, traced, made partially
> self-conscious, but in the tracings, consciousness shifts its shape.
> Meaning-making then becomes this process of tracing ways of life to see
> through the shapes of consciousness and THIS tracing alters the very
> consciousness which is being traced?.
> I suppose THIS process of shaping can be called a type of structure? But it
> is not an intentional construction or designed structure. It is more
> circular.
> 
> Just wondering
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Martin exposes better than me the core point. Thank you Martin. Achilles.
> >
> > > From: packer@duq.edu
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis" (timeo
> > Vygotskii et dona ferentem)
> > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:07:46 +0000
> > >
> > > Yes, couldn't we take LSV to be saying that an analysis of "meaning" is
> > central to the scientific study of consciousness? Just as Marx considered
> > an analysis of "value" to be central to the scientific study of capitalist
> > society? And then Thought and Language would be an illustration of such an
> > analysis - of meaning as it circulates through the word, the concept, the
> > thought...
> > >
> > > Doesn't seem so hyperbolic to me.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thank you Anton,
> > > >
> > > > I agree with the repetition of the use of "hyperbole" as language
> > figure in Vygotsky's texts is a fact that difficult textual analysis (oh,
> > if can exist such a thing like a method of "textual analysis"). Really, for
> > instance, there are many "central problems" of psychology in Vygotsky
> > different works ("mediated action", "freedom", "higher psychological
> > functions"...). But, if you take "meaningful word" as analytic unit for
> > "consciousness [problematic] problem" (if it is posed as a "problem", we
> > can suppose that is problematic, don't we?), is not without propose, nor
> > sou chimeric,  to quest for "A" (not necessarily "THE", even because in
> > Russian there is no such grammatical class: "definite article" or
> > "indefinite article")  kind of method of analysis. Leaving this aim totally
> > out of our research goals also is not so interesting, because
> > interpretative task can fall in relativistic proceeding, and nothing will
> > make really any sense beyond that of the own introspection of the subject
> > and of the researcher. The studies from Vygotsky and Sakharov, Vygotsky and
> > Shif, was some kind of attempt to understand the development of meaning
> > (this is a semantic aspect of human life), and indirectly, the
> > [problematic] development of consciousness, through its unit of analysis,
> > for instance. You can not study directly the hole "mysterious  character"
> > of consciousness, but you even can study of object of analysis of
> > psychology through it's clues, semiotic "indexes". Nobody will know
> > directly how really is a simple "atom", even so, some guys try to
> > understand objectively it through its manifestations, reconstructing
> > theoretically the way from inside to outside and vice versa - this is a
> > more moderate Vygotsky's analogy that we find in "Historical sense of the
> > crisis of psychology", for instance...
> > > >
> > > > Vygotsky uses several "hyperbolic" statements, but he was not so fool,
> > to take this so literally. Also not me, naive but no so fool...
> > > >
> > > > Болшое спасибо. До свиданиа.
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > > P.S. And about the creation of a new kind of biological socialist
> > human being, I completely agree with you, this was a serious mistake,
> > "nonsense dream".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:28:21 -0700
> > > >> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
> > > >> Subject: Re: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis" (timeo
> >      Vygotskii et dona ferentem)
> > > >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>
> > > >> It is absolutely impossible to disagree with Rauno's comment. Indeed,
> > the "semicheskii analiz" of Vygotskii
> > > >>
> > > >> is one of those programmatic statements, quite characteristic of this
> > person, who, inter alia, would repeatedly claim that
> > > >>
> > > >> QUOTE
> > > >>
> > > >> The new society will create the new man.
> > > >> When one mentions the remolding of man as an indisputable trait of
> > the new mankind and
> > > >> the artificial creation of a new biological type,
> > > >> then this will be the only and first species in biology which will
> > create itself...
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri14.htm
> > > >>
> > > >> END of QUOTE
> > > >>
> > > >> Indeed, such--and similar utopian and programmatic, yet thoroughly
> > and hopelessly scientifically ungrounded--
> > > >> Vygotskii's statements are not to be taken for granted.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> So, regardless of whether we agree or disagree (i.e., fully agree?
> > mainly agree? partially agree?
> > > >> disagree on most points? fundamentally disagree in virtually any
> > respect?) with Vygotskii,
> > > >> the really meaningful question,
> > > >>
> > > >> I believe, is what exactly, *ACCORDING to VYGOTSKII*, is the
> > > >> "Semiotic [and/or "semantic" = semicheskyj] analysis" that, yet again
> > according to this guy,
> > > >> "is the only adequate method for the study of the systemic and
> > semantic structure of consciousness."
> > > >>
> > > >> And, more specifically, how exactly did ipse Vygotskii perform this
> > kind of analysis?
> > > >>
> > > >> The answer, I guess, is as follows:
> > > >> Vygotskii DID NOT KNOW how exactly perform this "the only" analysis,
> > and in this respect
> > > >> he did not go much further his usual programmatic, but pretty void
> > from scholarly standpoint statements.
> > > >>
> > > >> So, if we dismiss the numerous "Vygotskian", including Wertsch's,
> > > >> interpretations of the Master's Teaching as irrelevant to our main
> > question here, --
> > > >> on the excellent criticism of the "Vygotskians" see Miller's
> > "Vygotsky in perspective"
> > > >> http://upbo.com/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9781107412477&ss=fro--
> > > >>
> > > >> then the three points made here previously are very much worth
> > considering:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. Nobody (even ipse Vygotsky!) has invented a method which reveals
> > the structures of consciousness.
> > > >> 2. The very concept of consciousness is ... empirically ...
> > problematic.
> > > >> 3. There is no single method that would reveal the secrets of
> > consciousness.
> > > >>
> > > >> Good luck with the search for meaning anyway! Perhaps, some
> > Gestaltists' work will help?
> > > >> If interested feel free to check the link:
> > http://psyhistorik.livejournal.com/80047.html --
> > > >> most stuff in Russian, but some references in English are certainly
> > of help.
> > > >> Also, you might want to explore how those Russian guys attempted to
> > do the
> > > >> "semicheskii analiz" to the extent they understood this idea roughly
> > in mid-1930s.
> > > >> But in order to do this, one needs to be able to read Russian, too.
> > Yet again,
> > > >> see the entry, it might help:
> > http://psyhistorik.livejournal.com/80047.html
> > > >>
> > > >> Good luck again! ;)
> > > >>
> > > >> AY
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > >> To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 11:56:11 AM
> > > >> Subject: RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis". Can
> > you help me?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Thank you. This problematic concept is the object of study for
> > Vygotsky's psychology. This is the problem for those people who agree with
> > Vygotsky.
> > > >> Achilles.
> > > >>
> > > >>> From: rakahu@utu.fi
> > > >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>> Subject: RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis". Can
> > you help    me?
> > > >>> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:43:28 +0000
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hello,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You should not take Vygotsky's remark (the only adequate method for
> > the study of the systemic and semantic structure of consciousness) so
> > seriously. Nobody has invented a method which reveals the  of structures of
> > consciousness. The very concept of consciousness is both empirically and
> > philosophically problematic. There is no single method that would reveal
> > the secrets of consciousness.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Rauno Huttunen
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> > > >>> Sent: 23. huhtikuuta 2013 7:29
> > > >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>> Subject: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis". Can you
> > help me?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Greetings for all,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Please, I understand that I have a major methodological problem in
> > my nearest research project: "how to understand human making-sense through
> > the concrete acts of a person's speech?". Along many years I had thought
> > about Vygotsky's claim that ""Semiotic [and/or "semantic" = semicheskyj]
> > analysis is the only adequate method for the study of the systemic and
> > semantic structure of consciousness." (see
> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm).
> > But it is not so clear how to proceed "Semiotic/semantic analysis". Then,
> > if you pleased, could somebody help me, shining my mind about the
> > (im)possibilities about somebody really learn *how to do* such kind of
> > analysis? Here in Brazil, close to me, there is nobody working with
> > something in this direction, then I have no local resources to ask for...
> > Forgive me about the naive character of the question, but I really want to
> > learn about.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thank you very much, once more. Best wishes.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Achilles from Brazil.
> > > >>>
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