Dear Larry You grasp on the idea of 'beyond physics' . Yes , we have lots of things beyond physics (materiality,corporeality) that can be called 'metaphysics' with a particular way of interpretation . But the fact is that Professor Holodynsky stressed his concentration on Leontiev . And Leontiev has his works before us . Brecht came up with brilliant explications in relation to Marx's theses on Fuerbach . My quote fully confirmed those explications . Andy exposed what we mean by metaphysics . Then , this is not a shared understanding . When we begin by forcefully approaching some cardinal opposing notions or ideas , and taking into consideration the fact that during and in the process of discussions , there might come deviations , misinterpretations , terminological chasms , etc. , the biggest peril might show its ugly face : confusion , tautology metamorpheses , dislocations , despair , frustration, so on so forth . Now , please read Andrey Maidansky's explications with respect to the true value of a true concept , then you can judge if a concept is a meta physics or not , in the sense that by physics we mean Mother Nature , by meta beyond it , that is , beyond actual material sensual world , that is , the realm of 'rootless non-foundational , ethereal phantasmic spirits' also discussed by Vygotsky with respect to the analysis of 'emotions/passions' . The original article is attached . Best Haydi Let us note that Heraclitus is speaking not about the chemical element aurum, but about the money form of valuetaken by gold. The ‘‘grandfather of dialectics’’ applies this value form to the genesis of all things in the Universe. He almost foresees, feels by the thin skin of his mind, the universal character of exchange relations, the ideality of the ‘‘wares for gold’’ con-nection. Whereas in those ancient times the commodity–money relations were still terribly far away fromrealuniversality; they had not yet had time to turn into ‘‘classics of the world.’’ Leaving aside allegories, we can point to one more ‘‘thing’’ which corresponds perfectly to Il’enkov’s description of the value form. This is theconcept, in the classic sense of the word, as a form of understanding the nature of things. The concept, inasmuch as a mind possesses it, remains forever the same in any of its countless material guises – in letters and sounds, numbers and lines, neurons and electrons. Like money, the concept can change its outward appearance with ease and be present in a thousand different places at the same time. For instance, the concept of a temple is present simultaneously in-side the architect’s head, in his blueprints and within the stone ‘‘body’’ of the temple. The concept is the ideal in its own essence, nothing is more ideal. As compared with money, the concept obviously looks like a far better candidate for the title of the form ‘‘most typical and fundamental, the purely ideal.’’ I believe that, when argu-ing about the ideality of the value form in Marx, Il’enkov constantly kept in mind, as a logical hallmark, Hegel’s Begriffsbestimmung(definition of the concept). The concept is the ideal ingeneral, while money is ideal in suo genere only – strictly within the limits of the world of commodities or exchange values, where money was born. Inside that market area money was and still remains the optimal, ANDREY MAIDANSKY 300 purest and supreme possible expression of value. Here it is the ideal commodity, a beautiful ideal at which all other com-modities ‘‘cast amorous glances’’ (Marx). These platonic, ideal glances cast at money are nothing else butprices. Gold, in turn, has become the ideal money. 39 However, the entire ideality of money evaporates at that very moment when we leave the realm of commodity relations, the very relations whose essence is ideally presented in the money form of value. In money viewedabstractly, as an artistic image or moral postulate, there is nothing ideal. If when compared with money the concept has the advantage of universality, then when compared with other universal forms of the ideal activity of man – works of art and moral values – the concept has another advantage. This is the ideal purity of the representation of the nature of things, attainable due to the diabolical indifference of the concept to itsAnderssein.Only one thing is demanded of the concept: it must adequately express the essence of its object, i.e., it must be true.Absolutely any thing can serve as material for the expression of this essence. Such is the ideally malleable nature of the concept. Neither artistic images nor moral norms can boast of such a truly infinite freedom of expression of the nature of things. Their organic unity with the sensual-material conditions of human activity is a sign of less purity and less ‘‘transparency’’ (in comparison with the concept) of the idealAnderssein, which they grant to things. However, right here lies their advantage over the logical form of the concept: the ability of immediately, sensually concrete perception of essences. It is the aptitude fostered by art and morality ‘‘to see the whole ahead of its parts’’ (Goethe), without which not a single new concept will emerge. 40 Taken together, these three universal modes of the ideal, known to all under the names of Truth, Good, and Beauty, form the human soul, or, in other words, the person. The personality of a man is three-dimensional, as is his organic body. In every single person we find the immediate actuality of the ideal – ‘‘actuality’’ in Hegel’s sense, as essence which has appeared.]] ________________________________ From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> To: Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 7:07:04 Subject: Re: Fw: [xmca] On metaphysics: origin of the term Haydi, I don't think its your limits. I acknowledge my limits on this theme and the way I'm grateful to listen in to Andy, martin, Brecht and possibly Rauno . Haydi, as mike mentioned the talk about *metaphysics* and Activity Theory is a central theme which is engaging many scholars. I do not have the background of either Andy or Martin. However martin is exploring thinking and being as intimately connected themes (for example in his article on Ifa divination). Martin puts in question the metaphysical assumptions of all theories and models including Activity Theory. He is questioning our understanding of *reasoning* when he argues that from within the Ifa cosmovision the thinking and the being is very reasoned reflection. As I understand Martin he is questioning the assumption of *mental states* as our current metaphysics (beyond physics). AS I understand Martin he is asking questions about the metaphysics behind Activity Theory. He is not being dismissive with this question, as he assumes we cannot *know* or *think* except from within a metaphysical way of life that is shared in common (Hegel's objective spirit)* Haydi, this supports the understanding within Activity Theory that our shared objective understandings are prior to subjective understandings. My reading of Martin's question is when Activity Theory posits *internalization* AS mental states??? I may have misunderstood Martin's intent with his questions. I understand Andy as positing *collaboration* as central to understanding. I'm reading Andy as positing *realization* as the movement of understanding which is both internally and externally realized simultaneously. Haydi, I'm trying to understand the questions and the answers Andy and martin are generating as they attempt to go deeper in their understanding. I often feel disoriented as I listen in on their conversations but I sense I'm developing a little ability to translate between their readings of the same texts. Activity as macro structures and institutional ways of life are *translated* into actions. I wonder about actions as planned intentional volitional acts and how they relate to practices. Planned actions when actualizes within historical contexts never manifest the exactly the way intended and the unintended situations are practices. Gadamer asks if there is a type of *knowing* which he calls phronesis (practical knowing) which is NOT planned volitional actions. Haydi, I want to acknowledge how much I appreciate your making the time to invite me into further conversations. Your last posting was very helpful and clarifying. I will continue to listen closely to both Andy and Martin. The question of the relation between ideality (thought) and material Andy argues are distinct essences. Martin answers they are both processes. I'm interested in the conversation which opens up new understanding as I listen into their disputes. Not sure if this is helpful, but I wanted to let you know I appreciate how you have kept. in touch as I continue to think out loud which I believe leads to further understanding AS a question and answer philosophy. In friendship Larry On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> wrote: Dear Larry >We've had a lot of talks in the past mostly off the list . Now , there's the same problem ; because of my limits , I cannot come to terms with the many good thoughts you've offered in one rich message ; hope Andy , Martin , Brecht will continue their helpful debate . Thanks and apologies ! >Best >Haydi > > >----- Forwarded Message ----- >From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> >To: Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 19:24:56 >Subject: Re: [xmca] On metaphysics: origin of the term > > >Haydi, >Hello, and thank you for this response to my questioning. > >As I read this commentary, (and Brecht's commentary on the transformations in Egypt I notice how similar are many the shared understandings. > >Haydi, I want to acknowledge that I am groping to understand these processes and am trying to get my bearings by reading multiple traditions and attempting to put them in conversation. >In that *spirit* I will try to translate *imaginative* as that process emerging between the material and the ideal (internalized). > >I share an understanding that thinking/being is a developmental process which emerges through effective history (hermeneutical) >That translates to the process of Marx *developing* through his encounters with Hegel. >Haydi, I see THIS process as central to thinking/being. >It IS a metaphysical understanding in the sense of beyond physics. Therefore forms of perceiving and conceiving and participation share a form of life. Science as empirical as foundational to *truth* is also a metaphysical understanding with its own forms of understanding. > >The central question around which we are exploring further understanding is the notion of the imaginable and how this relates to the dialogical and social understandings. I am struggling to see *thinking/being* as existing within metaphysical forms of life (as martin is so helpful in articulating). I am attempting to *see* as a way of perceiving (imaginable???) that thinking/being are always metaphysical forms of understanding and interpretation. The age of science and modernity AS a conversation through the temporal realm. > >The term *dialogical* shares an understanding with CON-text. Marx was participating in an historical conversation and his understanding emerged from within his engagement with German tradition. >Activity theory emerged within engagement with Marx as a conversation. They share a metaphysics. >As martin indicates we today are revisiting the way we dismissed the concept of metaphysics as something we have moved *beyond*. > >Haydi, I am interested in the conversation between Andy and martin and they way they *translate* each others understandings. >In THAT encounter, I must use my *imagination* to read/interpret/understand the continuing *objective spirit* being expresses AS dialogical (context)* > >Haydi, your commentary today I *interpret* as a conversation within effective history. Gadamer would suggest that when we are moved through our reading of Marx for example we are participating in a *living* conversation with Marx. >THAT way of understanding which imagines texts as *living* is what I mean by imaginal. > >Activity theory may be expressing this understanding of living text with different concepts which share the same meaning??? > >Does this help our conversation. Andy and Brecht are also in a conversation when Andy develops the concept *realize* which operates on both the internal and external plane as a single unified process. > >THIS concept *realized* may require what I am calling * imaginal* understanding. > >Larry > > >On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> wrote: > >Dear Larry >>You have the first response within the text itself : >>[[And these are the very processes of the ac-tivity of the subject that always are external and practical first and then as-sume the form of internal activity, the activity of consciousness.]] >>This means first that 'consciousness' is not there from birth (Ilyenko's reference to the experience of A.Meshcheryakov's innovations vis-a-vis the formation of consciousness) . Second , that when 'consciousness' was formed through the activities of the SOCIAL COLLABORATIVE DIALOGIC-ORIENTED (your loved one not repudiated by anyone) agent (subject) , it will not remain as something like a STAGE , as L declares , on which events take place and actors come and go , itself just fixed and recipient and away from all transformations , no , it , as is a moment of a whole non-stop process of LIFE ITSELF , aids MAN for a start of a INTERNAL activity towards the OUTSIDE (EXTERIORIZATION OR EXTERNALIZATION) . The ideal is volatile and this is the exegesis of 'reflection' . reflection is onto mind not to dwell , not to be registered , not to find secure place ; neither mind nor con. is a secure place to dwell in , to lie and rest ; reflection is dynamic and > dynamizes . Hence saying the ideal is within the process of the activity . All the time you think and act according to the schema of the ideal until it is , as you dub it , developed ; They say until it is REIFIED , FINISHED , MATERIALIZED , OBJECTIFIED . Ideal , reified , is no longer ideal . It's product . It's object . Now , again , Life takes you to the world of objects and orientates on one other object to promote it to the rank of a MOTIVE , according to the hiararchy of the motives depending of the personality of the SOCIAL ... agent . Another round of an activity and this activity is a close kin of the KNOWN MARXIAN LABOUR . And with Egypt , we are on the VALORIZATION PROCESS NOT the general universal work of man . >> >> >> >>Incidentally , the second response is also within the text : >>[[The psychologist-metaphysician also drops the mainlink -THE PROCESSES that mediate the ties of the subject with the real world, the only >> >>processes in which their psychic reflection of reality takes place, the transi-tion of the material into the ideal.]] >> >>How could these processes be imaginative ? Be reflection we don't mean 'imagination' . Meshcheryakov's kids were not able to imagine first . They were not able to satisfy their required instincts even . >>I know lots of efforts are being made these days to reduce the psychological to the physiological or to prove to know that we can find every aspect of the psychological within the physiological . But the Activity Theorists at least the Masters disagree . >>Second , the problem still goes : Ilyenko says ideal is not within the head . It's material . Dubrovsky as well as Lifshits oppose . Then if the word 'ideal' caused your thinking of 'imagination' , it's not appropriate here . >>Purposely , I will not enter the sphere of 'creativity' , 'Piaget's idea of Permanence' , 'the chimpanzee's ability to act/create/innovate just within the visual field' , etc. etc. >>Best >>Haydi >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> >>To: Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >>Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 18:22:08 >> >>Subject: Re: [xmca] On metaphysics: origin of the term >> >> >> >>Brecht, >>Your commentary was very helpful and clarifying. >>Your use of the word *inviting* and *invitation* also shifts the conversation towards dialogue and being addressed. >>Entering the conversation from two directions/perspectives also helps clarify the relationships. >> >>Haydi,, you mentioned a direction from material to ideal. >>Is this always an orientation from material to ideal, or is it possible to also orient from the ideal to the material once the ideal is developed?? >> >>Also is it possible to consider the *spark* that mediates the transition of one to the other AS *imaginable* or *creative* sparks??? >> >>Larry >> >> >>On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> wrote: >> >>Dear Brecht >>>Leontiev speaks in clear words : >>> >>>[[The old metaphysical psychology knew only abstract individuals being >>>subjected to the action of an environment that resisted them, who on their >>>part exhibited characteristic psychic capabilities: perception, thought, will, >>>feelings. Indifferently the individual under these circumstances was thought >>>of as some kind of reactive machine (if even a very complexly programmed >>>machine), or he was ascribed innately developed spiritual strength. Like >>>St. Sancho, who naively believed that with a blow of steel we will chop out fire >>>that is hidden in rock and who was derided by Marx,9 the psychologist-metaphysician thinks that the psyche can be extracted from the subject him-self, from his head. Like Sancho, he does not suspect that the fiery sparks >>>are cast off not by the rock but by the steel, and what is most important, that >>>the whole point is that in the white heat the sparks are the interaction of the >>>rock and the steel. The psychologist-metaphysician also drops the mainlink -the processes that mediate the ties of the subject with the real world, the only >>>processes in which their psychic reflection of reality takes place, the transi-tion of the material into the ideal. And these are the very processes of the ac-tivity of the subject that always are external and practical first and then as-sume the form of internal activity, the activity of consciousness.]] >>>Best >>>Haydi >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Brecht De Smet <Brechttie.DeSmet@UGent.be> >>>To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >>>Sent: Tuesday, 26 March 2013, 11:37:22 >>> >>>Subject: Re: [xmca] On metaphysics: origin of the term >>> >>> >>> >>>Martin, >>> >>> >>>Ironically, I think it is not only a question of methodology pertaining to a specific discipline, but a problem of "metaphysics" as well :) >>> >>> >>>In the model of "individuals constituting a crowd", the "individual" is a genetic and logical given before the "crowd". But, again, individual bodies come to a demonstration already participating in numerous projects. These bodies cannot dress, talk, or move without explicitly and "empirically" acknowledging their participation in various "social forms", i.e. systems of activity, projects, etc. Returning to Marx, individuals are really ensembles - coherent wholes - of social relations. An individual actor is, on the one hand, a discrete agent participating in countless activities, and, on the other, a microcosm of the activities (s)he participates in. "Individuality" (cf. Voloshinov 1973) is just one of the many projects an individual participates in. >>> >>> >>>It is important to realize that individuals do not assemble into a "crowd" independently from the activity. Their intentions are not an a priori as well. They are, in fact, formally and informally "invited" to participate. With regard to the 25 January demonstrations, people were formally invited through leaflets, facebook and twitter messages, and face to face conversations. But people were also informally "drawn into" the activity of protesting by the saliency of its actions. The organizers of the first protesters had decided to gather first in popular neighborhoods and move in mini-demonstrations from there to Tahrir, in order not to get arrested on an individual basis. This action had the unintended side-effect that people from the neighborhood began discussing with the protesters and began to physically join the demonstrations. Groups of a few hundred protesters swiftly swelled to a few thousands. The rest is history. >>> >>> >>>At the moment of the "invitation" people were already drawn into the activity of protesting. What was left for them was to *recognize* the project as their own and participate in its leading action: the demonstration. Conversely, the project had to prove its rationality and necessity to potential participants. The basis on which each discrete individual decided to agree and participate was quite varied. Often the decision to participate was not taken on an individual basis, but already as a collaborative activity, "in group", for example the Ultras (hardcore football supporters), families living in the same street, or workers belonging to a strike committee. But the fact that, in the end, millions did, indicated that the activity of resistance (expressed in vague concepts such as "the regime is a bunch of thieves" and survivalist or basic forms of resistance such as evading taxes, not going to vote, etc.) already existed and was taken to the next > level >>> of open and explicit mobilization. >>> >>>Likewise, a strike is not the first moment of resistance, it is the moment where already existing forms of resistance (often individual or by small groups) becomes organized, salient, collaborative, intentional, etc. Even when an individual engages in a singular activity he employs the tools and signs that are developed through his participation in projects. Even indirectly, his/her activity is still socially mediated. When participating in a collaborative activity this mediation becomes "direct" (dialogical?), and takes on a wholly different developmental logic. >>> >>> >>>People who were "passively resisting" were suddenly thrown into the collaboration of "active protest". They came into confrontation with the police, and more importantly, in a few street battles, they "won". They came into confrontation with each other and realized they were "legion" because they were already practical-materially a massive force. They were already making a revolution in their deeds and demands before they fully realized they were making a revolution and conceptualized their own activity as a revolution. If anything, revolutionary intentions came *after* practically being a revolutionary - emerging from the activity. Their individual consciousness of the newly emerging goals of their activity was semiotically mediated by slogans such as "down with the regime", "bread, freedom, and social justice", revolutionary songs, graffiti and cartoons that expressed power relations and the necessity to overthrow them, ..., and practically by their >>> organization and crafting of tools (from molotov cocktails to stages for speeches). >>> >>> >>>From *this* perspective, there are no two levels (1) "one perspective, actions in collaborations are drawn into a new activity, which then defines new actions"; and (2) the other perspective, individuals act intentionally (and reason and feel) towards and with others with whom they share a network, and this inspires and motivates others who have previously not participated." It is a story of mediation and of development, where individual intentions and actions are entwined with collaborative efforts. >>> >>> >>>When I speak of revolutionary institutions I mean this in a broad sense of stable and systemic objectifications of struggle. An ad hoc meeting to organize a demonstration or a strike is not yet an institution, but it can become one. The occupation of Tahrir at one point had the potentiality of becoming an institution (it was even called the "Republic of Tahrir"). Why did this institution not crystallize? Because the military was successful in drawing a majority of protesters into its own project of "transition". It demobilized the participants of the occupation action which then played a leading role in the revolutionary process. How was this possible? It was the outcome of a specific hegemonic struggle, which the military won, because of reasons I won't detail here now. To put it in abstract terms: the military formally agreed with the goal of the popular project, but substituted its own top-down actions for the grassroots action of the > protesters. >>> This created confusion, and the rest is, unfortunately, also history. >>> >>>On the other hand, many strike committees that popped up during the revolution DID crystallize into more or less stable independent trade-unions. Why? Because these strike committees often had a longer history of organized struggle and collaboration, because they were better organized, and because the fall of Mubarak, which demobilized broad layers of "political" protesters, was appropriated as a call for *increased* mobilization from "social" protesters. But that's also a different story which would lead us too far. >>> >>> >>>In conclusion there is a no strict separation between "social movements" and "institutions". Organizing a demonstration (movement) already presupposes degrees of organization (institutions), and from the activity of a collective action organizations may develop. However, in the development of an activity, there are phases where "movement" or "institution" is leading or dominant. After the fall of Mubarak, it was obvious that mobilizations were still important, but that the point of gravity shifted to building revolutionary institutions. And the fact that this formation process was fragmented, diverted, and retarded because of the so-called "democratic transition" from above (= counter-revolution) is the reason Egypt is still a mess today. >>> >>> >>>Best, >>> >>> >>>Brecht >>> >>> >>> >>>Citeren Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>: >>> >>> >>>> Brecht, >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I can see the logic of exploring the mutual constitution of actions and activities, rather than of individuals and crowds. Especially since you're in a Department of Conflict and Development Studies. But speaking as a psychologist, what would happen if one looked this phenomenon in Egypt in *both* ways - rather like MCM and CMC in Capital? >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> From one perspective, actions in collaborations are drawn into a new activity, which then defines new actions. From the other perspective, individuals act intentionally (and reason and feel) towards and with others with whom they share a network, and this inspires and motivates others who have previously not participated. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> It may even be that what seems organic and spontaneous from the one perspective seems logical and inevitable from the other. And vice versa. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Finally, you write that... >>> >>>>>> by instances of "institutionalization"... Only a few of the spontaneous movements of the insurrection have been crystallized and developed as stable and coherent "systems of activity". >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I'm trying to make sense of institutions these days. Do you have ideas as to why this has not occurred? What does it take to constitute an institution? The power to declare it? I mean, in a non-revolutionary society this is precisely what happens: one institution designates people (role inhabitants) who define a new institution. In a situation where all institutions, I suppose, are questionable, what alternative basis might there be? >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Martin >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Mar 25, 2013, at 1:58 PM, Brecht De Smet <Brechttie.DeSmet@UGent.be> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> I think a "crowd" is too loose a concept to investigate such a process. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Firstly, the category of "crowd" lumps together fundamentally different actions and activities. A lynch mob or a mass concert obviously has a different developmental logic than a political demonstration or a strike. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Secondly, I rather study the relation between collaborative actions and collaborative activities than between "individuals" and "groups". Individual bodies are not entering actions as individuals, but because they are already a part of existing collaborations which are drawn into a new activity/project. So the "seeds" of any "crowd" already exist before its formation as a "crowd". For example, the first demonstrations on 25 January 2011 in Cairo mobilized (1) existing "networks" of activists that had been built slowly since the last decade, both "real" (organizations) and "virtual" (internet-based); (2) non-organized people from popular neighborhoods who "spontaneously" joined the smaller protest marches towards Tahrir. But even these people joined the action (concrete demonstration) as part of an already existing project (neighborhood, workplace, community, etc.). >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Thirdly, instead of "individuals" constituting a "crowd", the mass mobilizations rather represented a coming together of different projects into a joint action, which then "organically" gave rise to a new project of "revolution". I say organically and spontaneously, because the goal of revolution emerged from the coming together of these various projects and the development of their joint action - no organized political force had dreamed of moving forward the call for an end to the regime. There was a dual developmental process: A. the goals of the activity developed from a vague and soft critique of the regime to the radical demand of overthrowing the current order; B. the actions that comprised the activity changed from mass demonstrations, over small-scale "guerrilla warfare" in the streets against the police at night, to occupation of public spaces. >>> >>>>> This dual developmental process was determined by, on the one hand the internal relation between actions and activity, and, on the other, the external encounter between the actions and organized state power. For example, internally, from the occupation of Tahrir emerged the need for grassroots forms of governance (tents, food, doctors, art and songs, prisoners, etc.), which, in turn, strongly encouraged the feeling that a societal revolution was taking place. Externally, the withdrawal of the police from the streets stimulated the formation of popular committees to protect neighborhoods from thugs and criminals (who were often set loose by the regime...), which, in popular and working class neighborhoods, became pillars of revolutionary self-organization. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Fourthly, this touches upon activity as a developmental process where moments of "movement" that bring together individual bodies in new forms of collaboration has to be grounded by instances of "institutionalization" (or systematization) if it is to become a stable social form. And this is where the Egyptian revolution has largely failed, up until now. Only a few of the spontaneous movements of the insurrection have been crystallized and developed as stable and coherent "systems of activity". But that's another discussion. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Best, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Brecht >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Quoting Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> What an interesting investigation, Brecht! >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> You write of a relationship of 'constitution' that runs both ways between individual actions and group activity. Years ago I read Elias Canetti's book Crowds and Power, and the memory I have of that book (probably distorted by the passage of time) is that Canetti was exploring the way a crowd has an existence that is more than the sum of its parts: when individuals 'constitute' a crowd this really gives rise to something emergent, new. Do you see that in Egypt? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Martin >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Mar 25, 2013, at 11:01 AM, Brecht De Smet <Brechttie.DeSmet@UGent.be> wrote: >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Activity Theory to engage in a detailed criticism; during my brief encounter with CHAT I immediately "jumped" to Andy's concept of project collaboration (PC) (which is of course partially rooted in AT). Likewise, because my research focus is more on the "meso"-level of groups, movements, and organizations, I can't really say much about ethnographic descriptions of micro-activities such as opening windows on election days. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> The advantage of PC for my research is that the object of an activity is conceived of as emerging within the developmental process of the activity itself. As I'm studying the revolutionary process in Egypt, such a perspective allows for an understanding of the real transformations of actions and activities involved. A concrete activity obviously constitutes concrete actions (e.g. the broad activity of protesting on 25 January constituted the actions of meetings, demonstrations, etc.), but the development of actions has the potential to reconstitute the activity (the demonstration on Tahrir turned into an occupation, which, in turn, created a space for alternative politics; the mass character of the demonstrations reconstituted the object of the protest towards "an end to the regime", i.e. revolution; etc.). In abstract terms: the relation between individual protesters and the activity of protesting (the project) is mediated by particular > actions >>> (their collaboration), and, vice versa, the relation between individual protesters and their particular actions is mediated by the "overarching" activity of protest. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> This neat scheme becomes much more complex when you take into account the relations between various projects, both "horizontally" and "vertically". Horizontally, the spontaneous revolutionary project arises in contradiction /solidarity to a bunch of other projects (e.g. Islamism, the state, etc.). Vertically, and "from the bottom-up" this project is part of such historical systems as the Egyptian social formation and global capitalism; and "top-down" it is constituted by and reconstitutes a series of smaller projects (students' movements for better education; workers' movements for better wages; villages demanding water and electricity, etc.). >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Added to this - and against the notion of the "omniscient" scientist-observer - the social researcher him/herself is a constitutive/constituted actor vis-à-vis the project, in the sense that his/her actions (publishing papers, doing fieldwork, writing books, attending conferences, conducting interviews, etc.) plays a potential mediating role, for example in the understanding of the project of itself, in crafting intellectual tools to achieve (or undermine) the goals of the project, etc. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I do not know if this amounts to a critique of AT, but this is the way "actions" and "activity" have been productive concepts for my research. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Best, >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Brecht >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Quoting Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>: >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Hi Brecht, >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Yes, a rational critique of ontology is possible, and indeed necessary. I was trying to engage in such a critique of activity theory, which it seems to me departs considerably rather the admirable (though not unquestionable) ontology that Marx proposed. (And yes, as you suggest, the claim to be "purely empirical" seems to me a return to the outdated and simplistic notion that there is on the one hand 'metaphysics' and on the other hand 'genuine science.' But let that pass.) Activity theory, in my view, essentializes a particular organization of human activity and in doing so obscures the historical character of that organization. Would you agree? >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 25, 2013, at 4:00 AM, Brecht De Smet <Brechttie.DeSmet@UGent.be> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Martin, I obviously agree with your presentation of the historical lineages of the "word" metaphysics. However, with regard to the current discussion on the "terms of the debate", it is quite obvious that Andy's original remark: "So there is no metaphysics here. No hypothetical "states of mind", or intelligent infants, etc" clearly deployed metaphysics in the critical (derogatory?) sense of a "false ontology", i.e. the domain of fantastic "a priori" speculation. Retorting that everyone uses metaphysics, a.k.a. an ontology-epistemology, paradigm, Weltanschauung, etc. obscures the fact that a rational critique of particular ontologies is possible and even a necessary part of the scientific project. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> With regard to the "concept" of metaphysics, the Marxian critique is important because at the time it did not only posited its "own" metaphysics against the dominant paradigms, but, instead of analyzing the social relations and politics that emerged from a certain philosophy, it studied the concrete historical social relations and politics that gave rise to shapes of metaphysics. In this sense it constituted a "Copernican revolution". Superficially, yes, "the materialist method" as Marx calls it in the German Ideology has an "ontology", in the sense that it is based on a number of premises, but, in contradistinction to the theories that came before: "The premises from which we begin are not arbitrary ones, not dogmas, but real premises from which abstraction can only be made in the imagination. They are the real individuals, their activity and the material conditions under which they live, both those which they find already > existing and those >>> produced by their activity. These premises can thus be verified in a purely empirical way." (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm) >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Of course we can make a lot of fuss about the supposed empiricism of this passage, but its essence amounts to a call for an emancipatory project with at its core real, historical humanity. Within the history of this project, the "insult of metaphysics" has taken on many forms, from a rational critique of a-historical, idealist, or anti-humanist ontologies to the sectarian attacks by the ideologists of (ironically the extremely "metaphysical" ossified doctrine of) "Marxism-Leninism". We may deem such insults as unfortunate, but they are perhaps unavoidable when the domain of ontology is as much penetrated by politics as politics is by metaphysics. To conclude: if anything, Marx subverted the "neutrality" of the philosophical "category" of ontology/epistemology and its "constitutive" position within society. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Brecht >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Brecht, >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, of course you're correct, Andy is reading Hegel from a Marxist point of view, therefore upside down, so to speak. But Marx's materialism is still an ontology, still a metaphysics. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Your confusion comes from the fact that there have been two uses of the word 'metaphysics.' One use is to label some kind of talk as having no basis in reality, as completely speculative and unverifiable. The logical positivists, for example, wanted to eliminate metaphysics in this sense from science - for them any notion was metaphysical if it was not verifiable. They realized that Newtonian physics contained unverifiable concepts, and they believed that Einstein's physics had eliminated metaphysics by defining everything in terms of operations of observation and measurement. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> We know now how narrow, unfruitful, and inconsistent the positivist view of science turned out to be. The second use of the word 'metaphysics' helps us understand why: "'metaphysics' refers to accounts of what truly exists, and to accounts of relationships between 'existences' (e.g. reduction relations, and perhaps other forms of dependence or priority)" (Kreines, 2006). That is, metaphysics is the brach of philosophy that deals with ontology (and sometimes epistemology is included), as well as the assumptions that any science makes about the entities that it studies. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> One person's ontology is another person's metaphysics. That is, when someone disagrees with another's ontological claims, a quick and easy insult is to label them "metaphysical." But the word itself simply came from the sequence of titles in Aristotle's texts: the text which dealt with what we would now call ontology and epistemology was simply next in the traditional list of titles after the 'Physica,' and so was called 'Meta-physica.' >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Did Marx make ontological assumptions? Certainly! For example, as you point out, for Marx the "essence of man" is "in reality,' "the ensemble of social relations." In this passage Marx states one of his core ontological assumptions. Much has been written about the ontological assumptions of Marxism (e.g. Gould, 1978). In the same passage Marx himself confuses things by using the term metaphysics in its first, derogatory sense. Unsympathetic readers of Marx's writings have also at times judged them merely metaphysical. Others, sympathetic readers, have also often referred to them as metaphysical, but in a positive sense. The negative use of the term is falling into disuse, with good reason. As the importance of ontology is now understood, it no longer makes sense to reject all talk about ontology as speculative and unscientific, or unphilosophical. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Martin >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Gould, C. C. (1978). Marx's social ontology: Individuality and community in Marx's theory of social relations. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Kreines, J. (2006). Hegel's metaphysics: Changing the debate. Philosophy Compass, 1(5), 466-480. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2013, at 5:16 AM, Brecht De Smet <Brechttie.DeSmet@UGent.be> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Because I do not want to derail the current thread, I start a new one: >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My point was that Hegel is hardly the person to turn to if one wants to avoid metaphysics! Individual, Universal, Particular - there's a whole metaphysics here. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well, if you look how Andy appropriates Hegel in his various writings I think you can hardly call what he does a form of metaphysics. On the contrary, he turns Hegel upside down, reading his logic in a materialist and non-metaphysical way. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> In this regard I think the philosophical implications of Marx's Theses on Feuerbach are still grossly underestimated. In a few lines he summarizes the deficiences of both idealism and materialism, subjectivism and objectivism, finishing off a few centuries of philosophical thought (of course the theses were but the end product of a whole project). After the theses Marx largely moves on from philosophical critique to developing his "materialist method". http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/index.htm >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thesis 1: with regard to "ontology": Marx criticized classical materialism because it conceived of the actual world not as human practice (subjective), but as merely objective. Whereas for Hegel the world consisted merely of thought-objects, for Feuerbach the world was constituted by sensuous objects. In both perspectives human practice was absent, as either an objective or subjective activity. As such both were forms of metaphysical thinking, i.e. a form of thinking and activity that did not place human practice at its core. (Also see thesis 5) >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thesis 2: with regard to "epistemology": "The question whether objective truth can be attributed to human thinking is not a question of theory but is a practical question. Man must prove the truth, i.e., the reality and power, the this-sidedness [Diesseitigkeit] of his thinking, in practice. The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking which is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question." >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is almost a Copernican revolution with regard to epistemology. True knowledge, "truth", is not derived from either formal or dialectical logic, but from the encounter between human thought and human practice. The reality of any phenomenon outside this encounter "is a purely scholastic question" or an exercise in metaphysics. Cf. snare theory, dark matter, etc. Thesis 8 reasserts this premisse: "All social life is essentially practical. All mysteries which lead theory to mysticism find their rational solution in human practice and in the comprehension of this practice." Real human practice or activity is the only base for gaining true knowledge about humanity. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thesis 3: with regard to "emancipation": classical (mechanical) materialism pointed out that humans are the product of their environments. Changing their environments resulted in changed humans. Of course, who changes their environments? Humans themselves. So transformation of circumstances + human activity = self-change = revolutionary practice. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thesis 4: with regard to the position of a critical or emancipatory science: It is insufficient to just deconstruct oppressive ideological concepts, "after completing this work, the chief thing still remains to be done". The reverse movement should be explained as well: how real social relations are the basis for these ideological forms. Of course, this means that the contradiction cannot be resolved in thought, but has to be overcome in reality, in practice. This is the core meaning of thesis 11: "Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it." >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> In this sense, metaphysics was also a way of resolving real contradictions in the realm of thought. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thesis 6: with regard to the "essence" of humankind: "...the essence of man is no abstraction inherent in each single individual. In reality, it is the ensemble of the social relations." Taking "the individual" as the unit of philosophy/social sciences is an a-historical and atomizing abstraction which "belongs in reality to a particular social form" (Thesis 7). A social science basing itself on the actions, intentions, emotions, etc. of discrete individuals takes a metaphysical and abstract view of humanity as its departure point. See also thesis 9 and 10. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brecht De Smet >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor at the Department Conflict and Development Studies >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Researcher at MENARG (Middle East and North Africa Research Group) >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Department of Political and Sciences >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ghent University >>> >>>>>>>>>>> www.psw.ugent.be/menarg >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Universiteitsstraat 8 / 9000 Gent / Belgium >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Citeren Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>: >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Oh! (he exclaims). My point was that Hegel is hardly the person to turn to if one wants to avoid metaphysics! Individual, Universal, Particular - there's a whole metaphysics here. Take a look at the Stanford Enc of Philosophy entry on Hegel (link below) for a sense of the debate over this. There has been an "orthodox or traditional understanding of Hegel as a ?metaphysical? thinker in the pre-Kantian ?dogmatic? sense. This was followed by a view by some that "particular works, such as the Phenomenology of Spirit, or particular areas of Hegel's philosophy, especially his ethical and political philosophy, can be understood as standing independently of the type of unacceptable metaphysical system sketched above." (But Andy hates the Phenomenology!) And then there are people who are "appealing to contemporary analytic metaphysics as exemplifying a legitimate project of philosophical inquiry into fundamental > ?features? or ?structures? of the world >>> itself." >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Myself, I'm closest to the last of these views. I don't think we want to *avoid* metaphysics (ontology and epistemology) ; indeed I don't think that is possible. rather, we need to adopt the *right* metaphysics. We can debate what the criteria of that need to be. But to claim of a position, in philosophy or the social sciences, that there is "No metaphysics here!" is a tad naive. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hegel/> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Martin >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:36 PM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought that what he said was avoiding it: back up your exclamation Martin >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carol >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 March 2013 16:48, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though you wanted to *avoid* metaphysics, Andy! >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Martin >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:17 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you Manfred for that clear explanation, and for correcting my >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> typing mistake! :( >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This might be an occasion to mention how my own development of Activity >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theory differs from yours and that of ANL. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not work with duality of "the publically assigned meaning and the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally felt sense". Rather I use Hegel's approach in which the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Individual and Universal are mediated by the Particular. This is a relation >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is applicable not just to motives, but any concept. It allows the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning of the situation to be something which is *realised*. This word >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "realised" is what Wiulliam James would have described as a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "double-barrelled word" (following Charles Dickens' "double barrelled >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> compliment), in that it means both "realised" in the objective sense of >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "made real", as in "The plan was at last realised when the judge delivered >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> his verdict," and subjective in the sense of "woke up to", as in "I >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> realised that my efforts to reconcile with my wife were doomed to failure." >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe that this resolves certain problems which arise in Actvity >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theory, but remaining within the Activity approach as outlined in your >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> excellent paper. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Holodynski, Manfred wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear colleagues, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thank you very much for all your valued comments on my article. There >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are a lot of aspects already discussed and I have some difficulties to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> follow all lines of argumentation. Therefore, I would like to answer to the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> following: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Emotions as psychological function within the macrostructure of >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> activity. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Andy claims it I get my Activity Theory from AN Leont'ev and I >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> focused especially on his concept of macrostructure of activity and its >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels of activity that is related to motives, actions that are related to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> goals and operations that are related to the conditions under which an >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> action is given. And Andy gets precisely to the heart of it when he stated >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that my article needs to be read with attention to motivation and how the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> macrostructure of an activity is related to the motives and goals of an >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual. One activity can be realized by different actions, and one >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> action can realize different activities. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> May I quote Andy's words: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " Because motives are not given to immediate perception; they have to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be inferred/learnt. Emotional expression and experience signal the success, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> failure, frustration, expectation, etc. of goals and motives for both >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> participant/observers and the individual subject themself, emotion is tied >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up with motives and goals and therefore with the structure of an activity. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> One and the same action could be part of different ??actions activities (!) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (MH)??. It is the emotions which signal (internally and externally) the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> success, etc., etc., that is, in an action's furthering an activity, and it >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is this which makes manifest and actual that connection between action and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> activity, for both the observer/participant and the individual subject. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So there is no metaphysics here. No hypothetical "states of mind", or >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligent infants, etc." >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) Take the example of the opening of the window. That's the behavior. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's the goal? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) Imagine the person is a leader and opens the window in order to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> greet his followers and to hold a speech. That's the goal. What is the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> activity? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) If one look at the circumstances one can derive that the speech is a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of a political activity in order to celebrate the election victory. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, if the leader also feels pride and enthusiasm about the victory there >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is coincidence between the publically assigned meaning and the personally >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> felt sense of the situation. However, it may also be possible that he >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't feel pride but a great burden and he personally feels to be >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> overloaded with the duties and future expectations. Then the societal >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning assigned by the followers to this situation and the personal sense >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned by the leader himself are not congruent. The leader framed this >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation under an achievement perspective whether he is able to fulfill >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the leadership. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, note when we talk about actions and activity, then we speak about >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an advanced level of activity e.g. in children or adults, but not in >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> infants who start to have intentions but still not a mental image of a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future state of affairs. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Differentiation between the basic level in infants and advanced >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> level in older children: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - A young infant has not already established a goal-driven level of >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actions. In the first weeks one can observe the acquisition of first >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations and of first expectations what should happen. But these >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations are not yet represented as a mental image about the desired >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future states. This is the product of the acquisition of a sign system >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which enables the person to evoke and imagine a future state in the here >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and now and to start to strive for it. And for this starting point, not >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> only to imagine different future states, but also to select one of them and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start to strive for it, emotional processes come into play that color >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of the imagined future state e.g. in a state worth striving for and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that mobilize the executive power to start striving for it. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the ability to form such notions of goals and to transform >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them into actions is not something that occurs automatically. It emerges in >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a long-drawn ontogenetic learning process in which the attainment of goals >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> through actions is tried, tested, and increasingly optimized. Older >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> children are >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, for an understanding of my emotion concept the macrostructure of an >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> activity is very decisive because I embedded emotions as a specific >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> psychological function within the macrostructure of an activity. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manfred >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prof. Dr. Manfred Holodynski >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Institut für Psychologie in Bildung und Erziehung >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Westfälische Wilhelms-Universität Münster >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fliednerstr. 21 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D-48149 Münster >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +49-(0)-251-83-34311 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +49-(0)-251-83-34310 (Sekretariat) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +49-(0)-251-83-34314 (Fax) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/Psychologie.inst5/AEHolodynski/index.html >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manfred.holodynski@uni-muenster.de >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net] >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Freitag, 22. März 2013 04:13 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Holodynski, Manfred >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike, Manfred gets his Activity Theory from AN Leontyev, rather than >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Engestrom's "systems of activity." >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So actions and activities are defined by their goals and motives. So >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manfred's article needs to be read with attention to motivation and how the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> structure of an activity is related to motives and goals. Because motives >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are not given to immediate perception; they have to be inferred/learnt. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Emotional expression and experience signal the success, failure, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> frustration, expectation, etc. of goals and motives for both >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> participant/observers and the individual subject themself, emotion is tied >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up with motives and goals and therefore with the structure of an activity. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> One and the same action could be part of different actions. It is the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> emotions which signal (internally and externally) the success, etc., etc., >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is, in an action's furthering an activity, and it is this which makes >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> manifest and actual that connection between action and activity, for both >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the observer/participant and the individual subject. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So there is no metaphysics here. No hypothetical "states of mind", or >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligent infants, etc. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's all in there. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Andy - and here I was wondering why operation/action/activity were >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not prominent in Manfred's article. Where does he lay out the views in >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this note? Am I reading too superficially as usual? Seems important >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for me to get clear about! >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 21, 2013, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Think of your illustration,Martin, about whether, in opening the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> window, you were acting as a technician or moral leader. I.e., the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning of the action lies in the activity of which it is a part, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is not immediately given. Manfred does not refer this to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "intention" or "belief". Manfred is quite specific that the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> signalising and self-perception of an action in relation to an >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> activity - i.e., an action's being of this and not that activity - >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a function played by emotion. Concepts like internal state and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intention are derivative from operation/action/activity, not >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>>> _____ >>> >>>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>>> _____ >>> >>>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> __________________________________________ >>> >>>> _____ >>> >>>> xmca mailing list >>> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>__________________________________________ >>> >>>_____ >>> >>>xmca mailing list >>> >>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> >>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>>__________________________________________ >>>_____ >>>xmca mailing list >>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >> >> >> >__________________________________________ >_____ >xmca mailing list >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >
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