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RE: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice

I fully agree, Martin. I have considered our lack of interest in the brain a
strange stance considering the crucial role Luria has played in C-H theory,
beside the clear implication of 
a materialist stance. How can there be a study of speech or thinking without
a slowly growing but exciting exploration of the brain?

Vera

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Martin Packer
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:13 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice

Seems to me that we say that a word is a process. Equally, a thought is a
process. Producing either without having a brain would be a struggle. Trying
to figure out the role of the brain in each is worthwhile.

Martin

On Mar 17, 2013, at 6:56 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> As I understand it, "mirror neurons" are not supposed to be sensory
neurons or motor neurons, but in the frontal lobe. But in any case, reacting
to light or pressure. etc., constitutes a connection to a neuron in someone
else's head only in the most trivial sense. But my intention was actually to
head off a diversion but I am in danger of creating one. I certainly have
experienced a baby smiling back at me, but I think ascribing this behaviour
to "mirror neurons" is pure metaphysics, about as explanatory as ascribing
it to angels, only except that "mirror neurons" belongs to today's religion.
I think infant smiling is most fruitfully discussed as behaviour rather than
brain activity.
> 
> On the other matter, far from occupying different realms, words *are* 
> things. But thoughts are not. But I no longer try to persuade people 
> of this. A lost cause. In the world of "mirror neurons" thoughts are 
> also configurations of neurons. :(
> 
> Andy
> 
> Greg Thompson wrote:
>> Andy, I think that there is an incredibly important assumption here 
>> in your comment that has been side-stepped by other responses thus far
You wrote:
>> "leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to other neurons
by direct electrochemical interaction."
>> 
>> If this were true, we would never be able to make any contact with the
world "outside" of our brains - neurons would just be talking to neurons and
they would have no connection with the "world out there" (or any world for
that matter!), and in which case, we would not be able to see, hear, touch,
smell, feel, balance, etc.
>> 
>> But we can do all these things. Thus, there must be a process of moving
from one to the other - from light striking the retina to neurons firing in
the retina and on down the brain (but where is "seeing"?). So "mirror
neurons" aren't necessarily impossible (although it may still be incomplete
or wrong for other reasons).
>> 
>> [and I hope you'll notice a parallel here between the concern 
>> articulated in this email and my previous response to the division 
>> that you introduced in an XMCA post some time ago between the dollar 
>> in your pocket and the dollar in your head. As if the WORD and the 
>> THING are in fundamentally different realms - never to meet one 
>> another]
>> 
>> But I think that there is an intuition in your comment about neurons that
nicely "lights up" one of the central problematics of Western science: how
do you get from physical stuff to mental stuff? 
>> I suspect that this question-as-problem arises from a confused
understanding of what we mean by both "physical" and "mental". On the one
hand, we neglect the semiotic, information-based properties of the physical
(and Gregory Bateson is a great place to look for a better understanding
here). And similarly, on the other hand, we neglect the physical aspects of
what we understand to be "mental" (and here, perhaps Charles Peirce is a
good place to look here). 
>> And a bigger problem within which both of these troubles sit is our
tendency of our understanding towards entification rather than seeking the
relational and processual nature of both the so-called "physical" and the
so-called "mental." And that's a whole other problem altogether.
>> 
>> But I've said a lot (too much?) already.
>> -greg
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>> 
>>    Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a
>>    metaphyical belief which have no more basis in existence than
>>    phlogiston or ether, would that actually change anything? Have you
>>    ever been misled by the mistaken observation of "mirror neuron"
>>    activity, or has observation of a mirror neuron ever explained
>>    some otherwise inexplicable event? So far as I know, leaving aside
>>    surgical intervention, neurons only react to other neurons by
>>    direct electrochemical interaction.
>>    Andy
>> 
>>    Robert Lake wrote:
>> 
>>        Hi everyone,
>>        I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly
>>        rhetorical) question is probably
>>        old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's article as it
>>        may or may not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as
>>        described by Ramachandran.
>> 
>>        
>> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civi
>> lization.html
>> 
>> 
>>        If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a
>>        caregiver mirrors back to the child, his or her own emotions
>>        through gesture and facial expressions. What if the child's
>>        emotions/expressions fall into the range of autism spectrum
>>        disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help create and
>>        develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age level?
>>        Are there some cultures that are more emotionally and perhaps
>>        empathically evolved?
>> 
>>        Thank-you MCA team  and Professor Holodynski for this article.
>>        I think it represents the a key component for the future of
>>        cultural/historical research.
>> 
>>        Fascinated and curious,
>>        Robert Lake
>> 
>> 
>>        On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden
>>        <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>> 
>>            The article for discussion is now available at:
>>            http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf
>> 
>> 
>>            Andy
>> 
>>            mike cole wrote:
>> 
>>                We will make available Manfred Holodynski's article - The
>>                Internalization
>>                Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical Approach to the
>>                Development of Emotions - available
>>                for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the
>>        discussion begin!
>> 
>>                mike
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>> 
>>                 
>>            --
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>            *Andy Blunden*
>>            Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> 
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>> 
>>            Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>            http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>> 
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>> 
>>            http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>        --         *Robert Lake  Ed.D.
>>        *Associate Professor
>>        Social Foundations of Education
>>        Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
>>        Georgia Southern University
>>        P. O. Box 8144
>>        Phone: (912) 478-0355 <tel:%28912%29%20478-0355>
>>        Fax: (912) 478-5382 <tel:%28912%29%20478-5382>
>>        Statesboro, GA  30460
>> 
>>         /Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and
>>        education is its midwife./
>>        /-/John Dewey.
>> 
>> 
>>    --
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>>    *Andy Blunden*
>>    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>    Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>    http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> 
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> 
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