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RE: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice

Hi Robert,

I know we're not supposed to say this about brain researchers but it seems Ramachadran makes an extraordinary leap.  What do we actually know.  When we see somebody engage in an action neurons in our brain fire.  This makes an extraordinary amount of sense.  We have known this for a while I think and it is the logical extension of vicarious learning.  But then he takes this one fact and spins this story out of it about the entire development of culture.  It may be true, but I think we have no idea.

I would bet you a million dollars that when I do something with my dog laying on the ground in front of me a percentage of neurons in his brain fires as well.  But he doesn't mirror my action, he reacts to it incredibly quickly (more quickly than most humans).  What do we call these neurons.  Or to take the specific example, we watch somebody being touched and the mirror neurons in our brain react to that so we put ourselves in the place of that person.  But if somebody came up to me and touched me my dog would react much more specifically based on the type of touch (come over the join in the play or growl at the aggression).  Again I bet the house that neurons are firing in my dog's brain, but would we call them mirror neurons?

Again, I'm not saying what Ramachadran is wrong, simply that when you get past the immediate empirical evidence most of it is a story he is spinning out from it.

Michael
________________________________________
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu]
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:34 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice

Andy,
Have you ever smiled at a baby and had them smile back?
There is nothing metaphysical about that :-).
Did you watch the TED talk?
RL

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 17 March 2013 12:15, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> > Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a metaphyical
> > belief which have no more basis in existence than phlogiston or ether,
> > would that actually change anything? Have you ever been misled by the
> > mistaken observation of "mirror neuron" activity, or has observation of a
> > mirror neuron ever explained some otherwise inexplicable event? So far
> as I
> > know, leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to other
> > neurons by direct electrochemical interaction.
> > Andy
> >
> >
> There's theoretical room for the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum, e.g.
> optics.    I think Robert is referring to the whites of the eyes phenomena
> observed in monkey(?) brain scans.
>
> In this sense its ontological status is that one can draw a dotted line
> around a scan image etc and name it.
>
> As far as the autism line of reasoning goes, I guess its akin to the
> phenomena of blindness in children who have (unfortunately) have had a
> patch over their eye during particular neurological developments whereby
> they are later unable to see out of what looks like a perfectly functioning
> eye.
>
> I will leave it to Robert to speculate on the social genesis of its
> systemic relevance...
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
>
> > Robert Lake wrote:
> >
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly rhetorical)
> >> question is probably
> >> old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's article as it may or
> may
> >> not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as described by Ramachandran.
> >>
> >> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_**ramachandran_the_neurons_that_**
> >> shaped_civilization.html<
> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a caregiver
> mirrors
> >> back to the child, his or her own emotions through gesture and facial
> >> expressions. What if the child's emotions/expressions fall into the
> range
> >> of autism spectrum disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help
> create
> >> and develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age level? Are
> there
> >> some cultures that are more emotionally and perhaps empathically
> evolved?
> >>
> >> Thank-you MCA team  and Professor Holodynski for this article. I think
> it
> >> represents the a key component for the future of cultural/historical
> >> research.
> >>
> >> Fascinated and curious,
> >> Robert Lake
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:
> >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     The article for discussion is now available at:
> >>     http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.**pdf<
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Andy
> >>
> >>     mike cole wrote:
> >>
> >>         We will make available Manfred Holodynski's article - The
> >>         Internalization
> >>         Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical Approach to the
> >>         Development of Emotions - available
> >>         for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the discussion
> begin!
> >>
> >>         mike
> >>         ______________________________**____________
> >>         _____
> >>         xmca mailing list
> >>         xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>         http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------
> >> **------------
> >>     *Andy Blunden*
> >>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <
> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
> >> **>
> >>
> >>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>     http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> >>
> >>     ______________________________**____________
> >>     _____
> >>     xmca mailing list
> >>     xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >>     http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> >> *Associate Professor
> >> Social Foundations of Education
> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> >> Georgia Southern University
> >> P. O. Box 8144
> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355
> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382
> >> Statesboro, GA  30460
> >>
> >>  /Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
> >> midwife./
> >> /-/John Dewey.
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > ------------
> >
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> >
> >
> > ______________________________**____________
> > _____
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> >
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--
*Robert Lake  Ed.D.
*Associate Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-0355
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460

 *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
midwife.*
*-*John Dewey.
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