[xmca] The family tree of CHAT

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Andy's response to Nektarios's characterization of CHAT set off a
discussion that seems too
important to passover. So I am seeking to rename it in the spirit that I
think underlies David Ki's approach inquiring about the intellectual goal
of the sociocultural enterprise.

The extra context for the way David formed his questions socio-cultural
theory helped a lot
as did the additional questions & comments from interlocuters. I started
another thread with the
intent in giving a name to the topic under discussion that others may wish
to change. I'll put David's
text into this message and seek to answer briefly in-situ. I hope it is
helpful. If so, we can go into
more detail, if not, someone can put us on the right path.
------------
 David:

Furthermore, Vygotsky and his contemporaries offered their theories as
scientific explanations of learning and development.
So, somewhere in the intervening decades the scientific aspirations that
cultural-historical theorists held for their theories seems to have eroded.
My question asks after this change:

*I believe we should be cautious in our interpretations of what it meant
for Vygotsky and his contemporaries (I assume you include luria, leontiev
assuming we are talking about the specifically*
*Vygotskian thread), to "offer their theories as scientific explanations."*
*
*
*Its not that I do not believe that there was a time in his career when he
had visions of solving the crisis in psychology theoretically. In the
context of his time he HAD to claim it as a scientific theory of he was an
even deader man walking even sooner. Jim Wertsch argues was an ambivalent
figure in this regard.*
*
*
*In any event, SO MUCH has happened in this regard, between the 1920's and
now that there are likely to be a lot of competing stories out there. And
Anton is busy unraveling further uncertainties about who wrote what when
and why for an entire history. *
*
*--Have cultural-historical psychologists, overall, abandoned scientific
aspirations for their theories?
I have sometimes argued, never in print up to now, that if there were such
a thing as an integrative theory that combined phylogenetic, cultural
historical, ontogenetic, and microgenetic scales of time/process would be
the metapsychology. But I also thought that any attempt to formulate such a
meta-theory the ring bearer would end up in a lot of turf squabbling in bad
will. Better to spend one's time with a discipline which might seriously
tackle the problem, Communication for example. :-)
--Have some abandoned those aspirations, but other maintain them?
Not sure who maintained them in the first place, in practice so cannot
judge. It there have been changed views over generations, as there have, do
they involve such aspirations? Hard to say.
--Are cultural-historical psychologists ambivalent about this issue, unsure
of how to frame their aspirations?
I have not been able to make much progress since the mid 1990's when I
adopted my own, odd, version of my interpretation of "romantic science."
Its the last chapter of Cultural Psychology, so people who
want to see text can read on Amazon unless someone has circulated a pdf I
do not know about.
There I argue for a theory/practice methodological "solution" the crisis in
psychology.
--In a poststructural frame, are the aspirations of cultural-historical
theory indexed to particular discourses, in some of which theories are
clearly scientific, in others, clearly not?
I have to confess that I am too uncertain about what you mean by a
post-structural change to be of help here. I woke up this morning worrying
that I was caught between the two David's arguing Polanyi and modern
philosophy of
science.

My own thinking in this regard leads along the lines of engagement in
valued social issues/goods, including moral goods. I think that in somewhat
different languages this this is what you and Andy are both gesturing
toward.
The fact that Andy got me going back again and more deeply to the
wellsprings of this mode of thought to Goethe
has been essential in this regard.

-------------------------------------

If any of the above is helpful, we could pick up from there. But if I have
misinterpreted, back us up to what you think that the germ cell of this
mode of understanding and inquiry are. I am not sure what we can resolve,
but we might learn a lot and perhaps even resolve some issues of current
uncertainty.

mike
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