Re: [xmca] Re: Lytical

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Mike,
A quick comment:
You wrote:

*without a lot of rehearsal*

You further commented:

"or is our ability to read in the first place invisibly linked to enabling
circumstances that are left out of the analysis?"

This question of what is invisibly linked but left out of the analysis is a
central question. However, is it possible that with lots of rehearsal, we
may link these invisible circumstances without knowing precisely what these
circumstances are??

When I and a student together rehearse a passage that is beyond the
students reading ability, I am aware that I'm not exactly sure what our
rehearsal is linking to. However, with each repeated encounter, the student
more closely approximates mature reading [prosody or reading AS
conversation].

The invisible circumstances may stay invisible but the rehearsal seems to
support the development of prosody IF this is what is seen as the focus of
intervention.

Larry





On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:39 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Larry--  It seems that fluency in general, prosody with respect to reading
> in particular, could be symptoms of a developmental change if, a la
> the examples that Helen G provided of Marianne H's notion of development
> being qualitative change across activities is kept in the picture.
>
> What I am still missing, a point that Andy has emphasized a lot in his
> notes, is the need to keep the individual-context relation in mind in
> trying to think about these matters. Any one of us, given a legal document
> to read, or being asked to stand up and read from an unfamiliar text to a
> large audience without a lot of rehearsal, is likely to get so hung up
> on pronouncing the words correctly that both prosody and comprehension
> are likely to suffer. Did we "forget how to read" under such circumstances
> or is our ability to read in the first place invisibly linked to enabling
> circumstances that are left out of the analysis?
>
> And note that "forgetting" is a reasonable antonym for "learning" but the
> antonyms do not come easily to mind.
>
> mike
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Andy
> >
> > I'm not sure if what I am going to discuss fits this topic or not.
> > I have been wondering about the centrality of *fluency* as a key
> component
> > of early reading. Fluency as a construct involves rate,  [automaticity]
> > accuracy, and prosody.
> > Recently *prosody* and its centrality to developing reading skill is
> being
> > lytically explored.
> > Prosody involves intonation and *pausing* as markers of turn taking in
> > communicative acts.
> > Bakhtin's construct of *answerability* as central to utterances [turn
> > taking within communicative acts] also involves *intonation* and
> *prosody*
> > as central and primary.
> >
> > Intonation and prosody express the emotional aspect of communicative acts
> > as forms of *conversation* which is Gadamer's central notion within
> > philosophical hermeneutics.
> >
> > I have been wondering if anyone is linking up the centrality of prosody
> > [intonation and pausing as emotional markers] within BOTH conversational
> > utterances  and early reading instruction.
> >
> > The suffix *lytical* meaning to dissolve or loosen and the notion of
> > *pausing* or *gaps* within communicative acts as *answerability* may
> share
> > common features.
> >
> > Is there such a word as dia-lytical?? [dia meaning seeing through]
> > Seeing through loosening and dissolving - NOT overcoming??
> >
> > This is very stream of consciousness but I'm asking myself these
> questions
> > so thought I would think out loud.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm putting it back on xmca as requested, Greg.
> > > Further investigation led me to the fact that the suffix "-lytical"
> means
> > > "to dissolve." Perhaps Vygotsky had a cinematic metaphor in mind,
> > changing
> > > from one scene, or situation, to another, by a dissolve? /Kritikos/,
> the
> > > root for "critical", on the other hand, means judgment or discernment,
> > > which I take to be a one-or-the-other process.
> > >
> > > In my reading of "The Problem of Age" I did not gain from the material
> > > about the lytical periods much about breaking down. It was much more
> > about
> > > consolidating and strengthening newly acquired forms of activity in
> > > preparation perhaps for breaking out of the situation in a critical
> phase
> > > of development. The critical phases are famously destructive of course.
> > >
> > > On the side, I would really urge xmca-ers who work in literacy to
> please
> > > join in. I am a social philosopher who wants to ally myself with a
> living
> > > and robust current of psychology, but I am not myself an elementary
> > school
> > > teacher and know almost nothing about learning to read. The article
> Mike
> > > wants me to read (and which I am still reading and will forward to the
> > list
> > > when I am done) is totally rivetting stuff. Written 24 years ago it
> > engages
> > > Vygotsky, Luria and A N Leontyev and is so sophisticated it bowls me
> over
> > > really. But I am still searching for something I could *disagree* with.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > Greg Thompson wrote:
> > >
> > >> Not OK just yet. I'd like to try to do some dissolving of your parsing
> > of
> > >> "lytic" a bit.
> > >>
> > >> I thought you said you were parsing (lysing?) "lytic" as "gradual"?
> > >> "Gradual" seems very different from "loosening" or "dissolving", no?
> > >>
> > >> The process may be gradual, but to say that "lytical" means "gradual"
> is
> > >> like saying that "boiling" means "gradual" (after all it takes time
> for
> > >> water to boil - esp. if you are watching it).
> > >>
> > >> It seems like there is something very important in the rest of the
> word
> > >> "lytic" and how that relates to development. It seems that part of
> what
> > is
> > >> being described here is the sense in which developments can actually
> > >> involve the breaking down (lysing!) of previous psychological
> > "structures"
> > >> or "formations". That seems much more interesting than "gradual". And
> it
> > >> also seems a wonderful corrective to the commonly assumed model of
> > >> development as simple linear progression.
> > >>
> > >> For example, there is a classic example of language learning where
> very
> > >> young kids will say conjugate verbs correctly b.c. they are memorized,
> > but
> > >> then when they start to learn the rules of conjugation, they will no
> > longer
> > >> produce them correctly (b.c. some don't fit the patterns that they are
> > >> learning - e.g., past tense of "run" is not "runned"). So their
> > memorized
> > >> understanding of "ran" must be "lysed"! The result is that from the
> > >> dissolving of those meanings a new meaning can emerge - e.g., add "ed"
> > to
> > >> the present tense of a verb to make it past tense.
> > >> What do you think?
> > >>
> > >> I'd be interested in opening this conversation to XMCA if you are
> > >> interested. Many folks smarter than I when it comes to translation and
> > such.
> > >>
> > >> -greg
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:
> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>     check the definitions for the suffix "-lytical." They mean
> > >>     "loosening or dissolving." OK?
> > >>     andy
> > >>     --
> > ------------------------------**------------------------------
> > >> **------------
> > >>     *Andy Blunden*
> > >>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <
> > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
> > >> **>
> > >>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > >> Department of Anthropology
> > >> Brigham Young University
> > >> Provo, UT 84602
> > >> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > --
> > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > > ------------
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > >
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