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Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren

To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 01:03:53 -0700
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Huw,
So I may know what your position is; do you agree that the sounds of our speech, simply as sounds, removed from words, affect us? If so, how? 

	Joseph

On Jun 5, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:

> On 5 June 2012 22:43, Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> 
>> Huw,
>> I am referring to the influence upon persons by the deep structure of
>> spoken-word language - the relationship between the sounds of words and
>> that to which they refer -. The personal intellectual activity that some
>> participate in, using words as thinking facilitators, is the realm of the
>> few, the ones who have the time and motivation to do so, not the majority
>> of those of us who are struggling to make ends meet. The harassed masses
>> typically do not have much perceived opportunity to engage in
>> "extracurricular" activities.
>>       The affect upon us of our language is automatic and constant, while
>> the understandings we achieve by our deliberate reasoning comes to us only
>> by our efforts.
>>       I am not arguing against free will, but rather saying that whatever
>> impinges on our perspective, - especially whatever impinges strongly on it
>> -, should not be unknown to us. For our survival, we need to understand
>> human culture.
>> 
>>       Joseph
>> 
>> 
> This belongs under a separate email thread, Joseph.
> 
> Have you looked at Halliday's writing?  "The Language of Early Childhood"
> covers Haliday's consideration of developmental functions in language use
> which may be a good point of departure for advocating your own line of
> inquiry.
> 
> Huw
> 
> 
>> 
>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>> 
>> On 5 June 2012 04:56, Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Dear Huw:
>>>> Seems I was misunderstood. The fact that there are deaf people does not
>>>> make a fly in the ointment. The culture is established by those who do
>>>> hear, - the 99.99% -. How do you imagine/think spoken-word language
>>>> influences human world-view?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> I imagine that one acquires a skill in construing, which is reflected in
>>> questions, that one learns an etiquette: one learns how to cultivate a
>>> curiosity in self and others.
>>> 
>>> Greg,
>>> 
>>> Re your Montreal question, did you have any thoughts around the
>>> distribution of appreciating different problems in the process of emerging
>>> roles?  On a smaller, and perhaps simpler, scale I recall situations where
>>> problems had been setup for children to stumble upon, but that were
>>> seemingly not registered by them.  A difficult problem left standing would
>>> amount to... what?  A conversation and vocabulary around site boundaries?
>>> 
>>> The suggestion that  'communication is the "site and surface" of
>>> organizations' seems productive, though I'm not taking this as
>>> comprehensive, rather as a reference to communicational exchange. If we
>>> want to be comprehensive then I think we need to include the
>>> organisational
>>> behaviour within the circumference of communication.
>>> 
>>> Huw
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>              Joseph
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> They're of no consequence for those deaf to reason.  ;)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Huw
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4 June 2012 10:53, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> And here's about deaf-blind people:
>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/****archive/meshcheryakov/****
>>>>>> awakening/index.htm<http://www.marxists.org/**archive/meshcheryakov/**awakening/index.htm>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/meshcheryakov/**awakening/index.htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/meshcheryakov/awakening/index.htm>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> According to Gallaudet University (which is for deaf people),
>>>>>>> http://research.gallaudet.edu/****Demographics/deaf-US.php<http://research.gallaudet.edu/**Demographics/deaf-US.php>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://research.gallaudet.edu/**Demographics/deaf-US.php<http://research.gallaudet.edu/Demographics/deaf-US.php>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> There are a number of listings of deaf people of influence, e.g.,
>>>>>>> http://www.start-american-**
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> sign-language.com/famous-deaf-****people.html<http://sign-language.com/famous-deaf-**people.html>
>>>> <
>>>> http://www.start-american-**sign-language.com/famous-deaf-**people.html<http://www.start-american-sign-language.com/famous-deaf-people.html>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.op97.org/teach-****learn/documents/****PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf<http://www.op97.org/teach-**learn/documents/**PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.op97.org/teach-**learn/documents/**PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf<http://www.op97.org/teach-learn/documents/PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****List_of_deaf_people<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**List_of_deaf_people>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**List_of_deaf_people<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaf_people>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.deafpeople.com/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>]
>>>> 
>>>>> On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:12 PM
>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>> What percentage of any population is deaf and what influence do they
>>>>>>> exert upon the world-view of their society?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>             Joseph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 3:00 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I also wonder, what about deaf people?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>> 
>>>>> On Behalf Of Vera John-Steiner
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:54 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph
>>>>>>>> I wonder whether the ultimate finality of the word--"everything is
>>>>>>>> relative to the word"--provides a too narrow, monistic view.
>>>>>>>> Euclidean geometry is rich in proofs which are presented through
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> visual
>>>> 
>>>>> abstraction. These can be explained verbally but their persuasive
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> power is
>>>> 
>>>>> visual.
>>>>>>>> This is an interesting though wandering discussion from toes to
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Euclid.
>>>> 
>>>>> Vera
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>> 
>>>>> On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 3:32 PM
>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Nothing communicates as profoundly as vocal sounds, - motions of the
>>>>>>>> human body -. Everything is named, - identified -, by sounds made by
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> our
>>>> 
>>>>> body. Our own body-emotional goings on is the currency by which all
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> else is
>>>> 
>>>>> valued. We relate to our world with our word.
>>>>>>>> Everything is reletive to the word. The "final word" on anything IS
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> the
>>>> 
>>>>> word.
>>>>>>>> The only handle we have on the meaning of our world is the effect on
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> us
>>>> 
>>>>> of the sounds of our words. We can prove nothing and can only feel our
>>>>>>>> vocal sounds for information of how we are affected by things. It
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> takes
>>>> 
>>>>> different words to communicate different information. Bear in mind
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> that
>>>> 
>>>>> words are fundamentally sounds and secondarily, referential tools.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When we
>>>> 
>>>>> refer to a thing, the referential tool is between ourselves and the
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>> 
>>>>> We perceive and are affected by the tool - the word - first and
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> foremost
>>>> 
>>>>> and then also by the thought of the referred-to thing. Subliminally,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> the
>>>> 
>>>>> word defines the thing:
>>>>>>>> Consciously, the thing defines the word.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>             Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 2, 2012, at 8:59 PM, Greg Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Anyone out there know much about Francois Cooren or the Montreal
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> School
>>>> 
>>>>> of Organizational Communication?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As for the former, Cooren's book Action and Agency in Dialogue asks:
>>>>>>>>> "What if human interactants were not the only ones to be considered,
>>>>>>>>> paraphrasing Austin (1962), as "doing things with words"? That is,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> what if
>>>> 
>>>>> other "things" could also be granted the status of agents in a
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> dialogical
>>>> 
>>>>> situation?"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As for the latter, the MSOC is characterized by wikipedia as:
>>>>>>>>> "taking communication as the "site and surface" of organizations,
>>>>>>>>> meaning that the latter emerge from and are maintained by
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> communication
>>>> 
>>>>> processes."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Both of these seem to be very important points that, I thought,
>>>>>>>>> articulate well with recent XMCA conversations.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Anyone have any insight?
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps a recommendation?
>>>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of Comparative
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Human
>>>> 
>>>>> Cognition Department of Communication University of California, San
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Diego
>>>> 
>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/****GregoryThompson<http://ucsd.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**
>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/****toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>>>> <
>>>>>> 
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>> _____
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>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>> _____
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>> 
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Follow-Ups:
- RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>

References:
- [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>
- RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: "Vera John-Steiner" <vygotsky@unm.edu>
- RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>
- RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

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