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RE: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
Thanks for the clarification Greg. Even 20 years ago, people with depressive conditions were prescribed lithium, which is a powerful, numbing drug. The development of the new, less heavy, better-targeted meds enables more precise diagnoses and remedies. So in part, depression is getting more attention because low-grade versions are now classified, when they weren't before because treating them with lithium would be like killing gnats with a sledgehammer. I'm not dismissing the zeitgeist in which this development occurred, just saying that there's some good science in there too.
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:06 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
First, yes, apologies for calling it a "disorder" - very thoughtless on my part, please read my prior as "autism spectrum conditions."
One way to think of what I intended in my comment is not as a way of saying that these are not real diagnoses, but rather to think of how cultural historical moments enable certain diagnostic tools to be hyper-developed while others are less so. And to put it slightly differently, we all have multiple "conditions" which aren't picked out by psychological diagnostics today.
So, why then, are certain diagnoses particularly well developed, while others continue to be ignored or seldom "diagnosed" (frankly I don't like that word either!). Seems there is a "fit-ness" of the tools to the times.
As an example, China has seen a major rise in diagnoses of "depression" in the past 30-40 years. The claim that I am putting forward (and which resonates with CHAT, as I see it), is not just that the tendency toward "being depressed" is culturally-historically mediated but that the ability to diagnose ("seeing depression") is culturally-historically contingent.
I'm simply suggesting that this has everything to do with the way in which these diagnoses articulate with the interests of all the various participants, and that those interests are a product of the complex cultural-historical moment in which they (we) live.
Hopefully that puts a little more thought into a thoughtless post.
-greg
On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
> Greg, I'm puzzled by your autism observation. The increase in autism
> spectrum conditions (and by calling it a disorder, you buy into the
> deficit view of mental health difference) is generally attributed to
> better diagnostic efforts in light of continued research into mental
> health generally, including autism. I say this as someone on the
> spectrum (Asperger's syndrome, which runs in my family). I've had one
> paper published on this topic and have a couple more in press and a
> few more in the conceptual stage (awaiting time to write them). I'd be
> happy to share with others any of the following, if you write me
> off-list. I was supposed to give one at ISCAR but couldn't make the
> trip; I'll give another at AERA next weekend. p
>
> Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad professor: An
> autoethnographic consideration of neuroatypicality, extranormativity,
> and education. Teachers College Record, 113, 1701-1732.
> Smagorinsky, P. (in press). Vygotsky, "defectology," and the
> inclusion of people of difference in the broader cultural stream.
> Journal of Language and Literacy Education.
> Smagorinsky, P. (in press). "Every individual has his own
> insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to the question of
> mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning, Culture and Social
> Interaction
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 11:53 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>
> Larry,
> and perhaps the incredibly high rates of "Autism Spectrum Disorder"
> diagnosis in the U.S. is a sign of the times?
> [At the very least, it should be noted that it is a wonderful fit for
> the particular here and now that we inhabit (by ourselves?)].
> -greg
>
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the 2 versions of this response by Piaget.
> >
> > I was interested in Piaget's comments on egocentrism [page 3] when
> > he was talking about unconscious preferential focusing and a lack of
> > differentiation of viewponts. He gives the example of the beginning
> > instructor who soon discovers that his first lectures were
> > incomprehensible because he was *talking to himself*, so to say,
> > mindful only of his own point of view. The second example Piaget
> > gives is developing the capacity to place oneself in the shoes of
> > the other [taking the point of view of one's partner] in order to
> > convince the
> other *on his own ground*.
> >
> > As I read Piaget's explanation of egocentrism [and its continuing
> > expression throughout the lifespan] I was wondering if this ability
> > [achievement?] to decenter and shift perspectives can be viewed as
> > an
> > *art* form or a *skill* that requires certain dialogical *ways* of
> > expression.
> > This leads to further wondering if the *distortions* in our current
> > housing arrangements; for example how we are becoming more
> > *self*-contained and living *solo* [50% of all residences in New
> > York city are occupied by a single occupant] may be having the
> > unintended consequence that we may be loosing the *art* form of *social* reasoning.
> >
> > I guess a counter argument could be made that living alone requires
> > more
> > *skill* in decentering as we are constantly thrown into novel
> > discursive situations.
> >
> > Just wondering.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:33 PM, David Kellogg
> > <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike:
> > >
> > > Actually, the version up on the Marxists Internet Archive is
> > > missing a page and Parsons' translation, although good, is not
> > > complete in
> places.
> > >
> > > Here's a version we did, alongside the standard translation. The
> > > boxes
> > are
> > > part of a discussion we had in our group when we were doing T&S in
> > Korean.
> > >
> > > I didn't answer your last on Basov, mostly because I was trying to
> > > find some Basov beyod what was published in the JREEP myself.
> > > Besides that,
> > the
> > > only thing I know about Basov is the (generally very favorable)
> > references
> > > in HDHMF.
> > >
> > > What surprises me is that both Basov and Vygotsky are indebted to
> > Volkelt,
> > > of all people, for the distinction between analysis into units and
> > analysis
> > > into elements! And where exactly did Vygotsky get the idea that
> > > behavior evolves just as organs do, if not from Lorenz and
> > > Tinbergen? It might be from Jennings, but in Jennings it's not
> > > exactly behavior itself that evolves; only the affordances of an
> organism's internal organs.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 4/6/12, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 10:43 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > Does anyone have a copy of Piaget's piece on Thought and Language
> > > from 1962?
> > > mike
> > > __________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of Comparative
> Human Cognition Department of Communication University of California,
> San Diego http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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--
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition Department of Communication University of California, San Diego http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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