Re: [xmca] Peter Smagorinsky on concepts

[Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>]

On 19 January 2012 12:32, Christine Schweighart <schweighartc@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello Huw, Andy
>
> I'd  use 'generate' rather than 'works' - and I wouldn't use 'mirror'. The
> two domains ( of the thought experiment and that of actuality in praxis
> ,living) are relate not through 'complete description of particulars of
> actuality' (we cannot fully capture all detail of living) corroborating
> some image 'mirrored' -; but the relation is through 'operational
> coherences' ( to use Maturana's expression) of praxis of living , or
> 'criterion of acceptability' that we use in listening to accounts in our
> 'languaging' in conversations about experience. Just to say that this does
> not reduce to the domain of  our physiological living, actuality is
> experienced 'in between'.
>
> Second on systems: I find helpful that 'system'  as notion is in our
> 'thought experiment domain' , not existing 'in the world' , so I'm confused
> trying to interpret
>
> "All systems comprise of material relations".
>
> I am distinguishing a 'static' use of system , where to talk of parts and
> whole is not a dynamic analysis ; and a relational use - where relations
> afford identity ( not parts ).  Is the identify affording capacity
> 'material' in your sense?
>

I am referring to all systems, Christine.  Distinguishing between them
would probably be another thread.

We use and perceive systems because we have finite minds.  If we were
omniscient we wouldn't need them, but then we wouldn't need words either.

I am not sure in what sense you're using identity here.  A sensible way to
proceed in identifying parts is to examine how they change over time with
respect to other parts, if this is your drift?

Huw



>
> Apologies for the interruption both..
>  Christine
>
> Relevant Maturana paper:
> http://www.enolagaia.com/M88Reality.html
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > On 19 January 2012 11:33, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Mmmm, hard to keep track of whatever it was we disagreed about here,
> Huw,
> > > but my reaction to what you say would be that an abstract concept also
> > > mirrors reality, but in a different way. The task of the thinker is to
> > > "reconstruct the real in thought" and that begins from an abstraction
> > which
> > > best encapsulates the whole Gestalt, but lacks concreteness, and must
> > > therefore mark the beginning point of a mental reconstruction of the
> > real.
> > > Yes?
> > >
> > > Andy
> >
> >
> > The abstract system, in the sense portrayed by Marx, could not be
> > implemented.  It would not work.  It would not be a system in its own
> > right.
> >
> > Thought inheres within a material system.  One is never outside
> > materiality.  Although the system of thought allows us to mentally
> > construct pseudo systems that would not work if implemented.
> >
> > I think there can be value in beginning with abstractions (in this
> sense),
> > although Marx in the passage quoted seemed against it.
> >
> > Huw
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Huw Lloyd wrote:
> > >
> > >> My understanding is that a concrete conception, as referred to here,
> by
> > >> Marx, refers to conceptions that authentically mirror the concrete,
> the
> > >> material, the phenomena.
> > >>
> > >> All systems comprise of material relations.
> > >>
> > >> I refer to material here because this is directly related to
> structure.
> > >>
> > >> Concrete is not merely a concentration of abstractions, it is a
> > >> concentration that mirrors the phenomena of interest in the concrete
> > world.
> > >>  Alternatively if we were to implement our concrete conceptions we
> would
> > >> also have a concrete system.
> > >>
> > >> Huw
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
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