Re: [xmca] Cultural memory

[Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>]

Yes, I think I see. I just have a hard time on the split between material
artifacts and language. You've made that argument before and while I
understand the distinction from an emic perpective, I also that it is not
very useful when making arguments about social mediation. The sign is like a
material artifact in that it is of social origins and it allows us to do
something that we might not otherwise be able to do.

To make this point and as one more suggestion to try with your protagonist,
why not try the phylogenetic argument. Two examples work well here. Consider
the first use of a arrow or spear and how that transformed all of mankind
not simply by making it easier to get food but by creating a diet that had
higher amounts of fat, this created opportunities for the human body to
evolve (over generations of generations) in new ways (this is a dialectic
argument pushed across a great many years - the ability to use the tool
created new evolutionary possibilities). Second, consider the use of
language as a tool and how this transforms the hunt such that people can
coordinate their attacks in much more complex ways (although it should be
said that many animals do pretty complex coordinated attacks when hunting,
everything from hyenas to whales - but it seems like there is something
about planning and foresight that humans can do that dogs can't, but maybe
this will be another sticking point).

So the idea is to try the argument of human language vs. non-human language.
What does having human language "get" you in some larger sense. It seems
critical in order to be able to do all the things that we do that
distinguish us from animals, no? Buildings, commerce, technology, etc. - all
turns on our ability to use language humanly. And the fact that we have
the available time that we do (as well as the ability to instantly
communicate around the globe - Hello Australia!) also makes it possible for
us to engage with each other in ways that we could not otherwise.

But, as you see, I've offered little in the way of material artifacts (the
arrowhead). This is because I see the important point being one that
involves social mediation and certainly materials are needed, but it seems
to me to be too easy to pick apart the material argument because you can
always substitute other material artifacts. What you can't substitute is the
social nature of the artifacts being used. And language makes that argument
best. Two questions strike the heart of the matter here: Who would you be
without language? Where does language come from?

Curious to hear your thoughts, esp. re: the material/language split (e.g.,
isn't language "material" in exactly the same way as the material artifact?
Or is language somehow "immaterial"?)
-greg


On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 2:38 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Of course you are right Greg that language, whether spoken or written, is
> the mediating artefact par excellence. But not everyone recognises words as
> specifically mediating artefacts. The dominant trend of interactionism today
> regards interactions as a subject-to-subject dyad, and subsumes within each
> subject their knowledge and facility with language use. So the status of
> words as artefacts existing prior to and independently of the interacting
> individuals is invisible. Indeed, the actually words do not exisat prior to
> the interaction, only the "model" for them, so to speak. The distinction
> between a text (i.e., the written word) and speech in this context is just
> that those who do not come from Cultural Psychology or Activity Theory do
> not take speech as a mediating artefact, but rather a function of the
> subject. This allows them to pretend that a culture is recreated from
> scratch every moment as people interact, and the subject's memory and
> continuing language-ability is the only thing guaranteeing the existence of
> culture, recreating appropriate words in the course of evey interaction.
>
> I agree with you that the distinction between text and speech is entirely
> secondary but in the context of arguing for the very idea of mediating
> artefacts it becomes important, because my protagonist just doesn't see the
> point of considering mediating artefacts, i.e., material objects with social
> significance, at all. This is what forces me on to the territory of
> "cultural memory." If cultural memory can be plausibly explained without
> recourse to the idea of mediating artefacts, then it is just as Deborah
> suggested, we must agree to disagree, it's just a difference of preference.
>
> Do you see what I am getting at?
> Andy
>
> Greg Thompson wrote:
>
>> Seems like you're in a pinch Andy. The way you've phrased the problem
>> makes it something of a riddle to me, for a number of reasons. How do you
>> pass things by word of mouth but not with texts? Unless by "texts" you meant
>> written words, in which case, what do you make of oral "texts" passed down
>> through generations? There are other sorts of ways in which thickly
>> culturally mediated words and practices, similar to the things that Lucas
>> mentioned, are passed down through the generations. So I'm with Lucas that
>> there are lots of examples of cultural practices (activities?) that get
>> passed on from generation to generation without necessarily having land or
>> artifacts tied to them. But I also disagree with your "protagonist."
>>  I'd locate the problem somewhere in the notion that words of the mouth
>> are unmediated expressions of subjectivity. Two big problems here, first,
>> words, second subjectivity. Taking the second first (b.c. you seem to
>> suggest that he is positing that "words" are unmediated - more on that
>> later), if subjectivity has thickly social origins, i.e. is mediated by
>> culture and place, then aren't things issuing forth going to be mediated by
>> culture. Volosinov and Bakhtin provide some of the best thinking about this
>> (I'd strongly suggest Volosinov's Chapter 3 of Marxism and the Philosophy of
>> Language, titled Language and Objective Psychology).
>>  For me, Andy, the problem arises when you accept your protagonist's claim
>> that language simply and straightforwardly brings what is inside out. You
>> skim over language as a mediating artifact. I think there's been some talk
>> about this lately (some in disagreement with my position), but I just don't
>> see how you can leave language out as a mediating artifact.
>> But maybe you can give some convincing examples?
>> And maybe I'm missing the larger point of your position.
>>  But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the times as one in
>> which people don't see the mediating artifacts around them (I regularly
>> teach about my favorite mediating artifact: language!). I think the success
>> of the American TV show Survivor provides good evidence of the
>> Robinsonade-like fantasies of people today who imagine themselves as great
>> heroes surviving in the wild. (and I'd add that Volosinov's other well-known
>> book, Freudianism, speaks very well to the fantasies of the bourgeousie
>> during times of crisis).
>>  -greg
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>    My point is, Lucas, that I doubt that this can be done in fact,
>>    without reliance on one kind or another of enduring artefact. I
>>    need a counterexample to be convinced.
>>    Andy
>>
>>    Lucas Bietti wrote:
>>
>>
>>        Dear Andy,
>>
>>                 Can these customs be related to ways of behaving according
>> to
>>        specific social contexts? In a broad sense, 'politeness' in
>>        the pragmatic and discursive sense (to say the right things at
>>        the right time) could be a way of behaving handed down from
>>        one generation to the next based on imitation and  correction
>>        by verbal communication among members of the same epistemic
>>        community. This also depends on what you are referring to by
>>        'cultural memory'.
>>                 Lucas
>>
>>
>>
>>        On October 15, 2011 at 1:54 AM Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>        > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a supporter
>>        of Robert
>>        > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity Theorist.
>>        on the
>>        > question of cultural memory.
>>        >
>>        > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does not
>>        theorise any
>>        > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He
>>        supposes that norms
>>        > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by word
>>        of mouth
>>        > (taken to be an unmediated expression of subjectivity), and
>>        artefacts
>>        > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no
>>        essential role
>>        > in this.
>>        >
>>        > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist.
>>        >
>>        > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous
>>        people who
>>        > managed to maintain their customs even after being removed
>>        from their
>>        > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews,
>>        but of course
>>        > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we had
>>        the same
>>        > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I
>>        responded that I
>>        > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without
>>        baseball bats,
>>        > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other
>>        artefacts used in
>>        > the game.
>>        >
>>        > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over
>>        generations
>>        > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as
>>        well as tools,
>>        > but allowing the spoken word)?
>>        >
>>        > Andy
>>        > --
>>        >
>>        ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>>        > *Andy Blunden*
>>        > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>        > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**>
>>        > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>
>>        <http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> >
>>        >
>>        > ______________________________**____________
>>        > _____
>>        > xmca mailing list
>>        > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>        > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>
>>
>>    --     ------------------------------**------------------------------*
>> *------------
>>    *Andy Blunden*
>>    Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/*
>> *>
>>    Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>
>>    <http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> >
>>
>>
>>    ______________________________**____________
>>    _____
>>    xmca mailing list
>>    xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>    http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
>> Department of Communication
>> University of California, San Diego
>>
>>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>
> ______________________________**____________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>



-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
Department of Communication
University of California, San Diego
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca