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This is an interesting issue, Michael. There is no doubt that any
artefact is (to coin a word) reconstrued continuously. This is
why we have to locate our conception of material culture in a theory of
Activity, because even though the sign mediates the activity, the
activity gives meaning to the sign. (This, in my opinion, is where
Vygotsky and Leontyev are better than Heidegger). So having a material
culture does not set cultural memory in concrete, so to speak, but it
does lend continuity. As Vygotsky likes to point out, words often
change their meaning to the direct opposite, in the course of their
history. Andy Michael Glassman wrote: Hi Andy, I have been thinking about your conundrum. At first I thought that of course there is such a thing as institutional memory serparate from specific artifacts. The memory is based instead on organizational structures and ways of interacting that are somehow passed down from generation to generation. The meaning of artifacts can change with the times, depending on what role they are playing. For example an obscure Buddhist symbol within a single generation became an extraordinarily powerful symbol for anti-semitism. I remember walking in a recreation of a Buddhist shrine in China and feeling extraoridnarily uncomfortable from the symbols, even though I knew for sure they did not have anything close to that meaning for the people who created them or most who were viewing them. So traditions of prejudice and oppression I might argue is passed down through social interaction structures in which mediating artifacts are inter-changable. But there is a difficulty with this vie w as well, because I think social groups have a tendency to think there is more institutional memory than actually exists. We set up our memories so that what we are doing now is a recreation of what has come before - and then of course use this institutional memory as an excuse for our actions, "Well that's the way it has always been done." So maybe its just best to be suspicious of the idea that traditions are actually transferred between generations - at least the way we think they are. Michael ________________________________ From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sat 10/15/2011 5:38 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [xmca] Cultural memory Of course you are right Greg that language, whether spoken or written, is the mediating artefact par excellence. But not everyone recognises words as specifically mediating artefacts. The dominant trend of interactionism today regards interactions as a subject-to-subject dyad, and subsumes within each subject their knowledge and facility with language use. So the status of words as artefacts existing prior to and independently of the interacting individuals is invisible. Indeed, the actually words do not exisat prior to the interaction, only the "model" for them, so to speak. The distinction between a text (i.e., the written word) and speech in this context is just that those who do not come from Cultural Psychology or Activity Theory do not take speech as a mediating artefact, but rather a function of the subject. This allows them to pretend that a culture is recreated from scratch every moment as people interact, and the subject's memory and continuing language-ability is the only thing guaranteeing the existence of culture, recreating appropriate words in the course of evey interaction. I agree with you that the distinction between text and speech is entirely secondary but in the context of arguing for the very idea of mediating artefacts it becomes important, because my protagonist just doesn't see the point of considering mediating artefacts, i.e., material objects with social significance, at all. This is what forces me on to the territory of "cultural memory." If cultural memory can be plausibly explained without recourse to the idea of mediating artefacts, then it is just as Deborah suggested, we must agree to disagree, it's just a difference of preference. Do you see what I am getting at? Andy Greg Thompson wrote:Seems like you're in a pinch Andy. The way you've phrased the problem makes it something of a riddle to me, for a number of reasons. How do you pass things by word of mouth but not with texts? Unless by "texts" you meant written words, in which case, what do you make of oral "texts" passed down through generations? There are other sorts of ways in which thickly culturally mediated words and practices, similar to the things that Lucas mentioned, are passed down through the generations. So I'm with Lucas that there are lots of examples of cultural practices (activities?) that get passed on from generation to generation without necessarily having land or artifacts tied to them. But I also disagree with your "protagonist." I'd locate the problem somewhere in the notion that words of the mouth are unmediated expressions of subjectivity. Two big problems here, first, words, second subjectivity. Taking the second first (b.c. you seem to suggest that he is positing that "words" are unmediated - more on that later), if subjectivity has thickly social origins, i.e. is mediated by culture and place, then aren't things issuing forth going to be mediated by culture. Volosinov and Bakhtin provide some of the best thinking about this (I'd strongly suggest Volosinov's Chapter 3 of Marxism and the Philosophy of Language, titled Language and Objective Psychology). For me, Andy, the problem arises when you accept your protagonist's claim that language simply and straightforwardly brings what is inside out. You skim over language as a mediating artifact. I think there's been some talk about this lately (some in disagreement with my position), but I just don't see how you can leave language out as a mediating artifact. But maybe you can give some convincing examples? And maybe I'm missing the larger point of your position. But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the times as one in which people don't see the mediating artifacts around them (I regularly teach about my favorite mediating artifact: language!). I think the success of the American TV show Survivor provides good evidence of the Robinsonade-like fantasies of people today who imagine themselves as great heroes surviving in the wild. (and I'd add that Volosinov's other well-known book, Freudianism, speaks very well to the fantasies of the bourgeousie during times of crisis). -greg On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: My point is, Lucas, that I doubt that this can be done in fact, without reliance on one kind or another of enduring artefact. I need a counterexample to be convinced. Andy Lucas Bietti wrote: Dear Andy, Can these customs be related to ways of behaving according to specific social contexts? In a broad sense, 'politeness' in the pragmatic and discursive sense (to say the right things at the right time) could be a way of behaving handed down from one generation to the next based on imitation and correction by verbal communication among members of the same epistemic community. This also depends on what you are referring to by 'cultural memory'. Lucas On October 15, 2011 at 1:54 AM Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a supporter of Robert > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity Theorist. on the > question of cultural memory. > > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does not theorise any > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He supposes that norms > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by word of mouth > (taken to be an unmediated _expression_ of subjectivity), and artefacts > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no essential role > in this. > > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist. > > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous people who > managed to maintain their customs even after being removed from their > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews, but of course > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we had the same > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I responded that I > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without baseball bats, > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other artefacts used in > the game. > > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over generations > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as well as tools, > but allowing the spoken word)? > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1 > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857> > > __________________________________________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1 Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857> __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Department of Communication University of California, San Diego-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1 Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca --
*Andy Blunden* Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1 Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 |
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