Andy ! Thank you for the short lead . Flattering aside , I've always
seen you do your best to put things on right track if deviated . This
way principles are secured rather than compromised . I do know I need
more and more readings . However , one at times feels we're moving
along two extremes . However , I'm almost known to your investigation
of "project" . I'm sure others , too , are expecting more to come .
Best
Haydi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
*To:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
*Sent:* Tuesday, 11 October 2011, 3:45:25
*Subject:* Re: [xmca] Activity and interpsychological aspects of CHAT
Hajdi, I will limit my comments to why I praise Vygotsky as a great
Marxist, and at the same time I claim that my main interest is in social
change, and not learning or psychological problems as such.
It is true that Vygotsky never ventured into the domain of social theory
as such. I think the problems facing anyone wanting to do that in
Stalin's USSR were very great, whether they were loyal to the Party or
not. But he laid the foundations. He showed how consciousness is formed
in a person's interactions. The wider society participates directly in
an individual's interactions because we must use products of the culture
in everything we do, we do not invent a language when we meet someone,
we use the existing language, and everything else the culture provides.
Vygotsky lacked one thing, in my view, that is the source of motivation
for actions, which, as AN Leontyev correctly showed, lies in the
activity of which our action is a part. But in following ANL in studying
activities, I prefer to retain the methodological core of Vygotsky's
work (which ANL did not, in my view) and take the activity as a unit of
analysis. This is of course exactly what ANL claimed to have achieved,
but I think he did not really understand this concept of unit of
analysis, and his analysis suffered from problems as a result. Engestrom
set out to address these problems. Some of them he resolved, but I think
in other ways, he moved further away from a solution. These are all open
questions. But my aim is to reconstruct an Activity Theory which is more
true to the foundations laid by Vygotsky. The purpose of such an
activity theory is to fight capitalism and make a better world, that's
all.
OK?
Andy
Haydi Zulfei wrote:
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011, 16:16:53
> Subject: [xmca] Activity and interpsychological aspects of CHAT
>
>
> Hi Haydi
>
>
> I'm responding to your concern that activity and the larger macro
level is
>
> being overshadowed by the more personal and interpsychological
aspects of
>
> CHAT.
>
> **1.
> a. Andy , besides his other activities is the editor of the MCA . He
said in his view Vygotsky was a GREAT marxist .
> b. I repeat the Activity Theory , to all evidence , has its roots in
Marxism .
> c. I emphasized on distinguishing between "individual" and
"personal" in discussing CHAT .
> d. Yes , I believe [[...I believe activity (proper) and the larger
macro level is being overshadowed by the more (individual)and
interpsychological aspects of CHAT . ]]
>
> You should have heard about the "leading activity" and the
corresponding hiararchy of motives . Usually , discussion focuses on
"any" activity ; leaving the macro-social aside , discussing what
happens within the sphere of hygiene , let's say , while every
pollution and
> corruption is downstreaming from the top in a global capitalist
> formation .
>
> Leontyev himself ansers no need to quote Wertsch : " A division of
the function of sense formation
> and simple stimulation between motives of one and the same activity
makes it
> possible to understand the principal relationships characterizing the
> motivational sphere of personality: the relationships of the
hierarchy of motives.This hierarchy is not in the least constructed on a
> scale of their proximity to the vital (biological) needs in a way
similar to
> that which Maslow, for
> example, imagines: [1.The
> necessity for maintaining physiological homeostasis is the basis for the
> hierarchy; the motives for self-preservation are higher, next,
3.confidence and prestige; finally, at the top of
> the hierarchy, motives of 4.cognition
> and aesthetics]. The principal problem that arises here is not to what
> extent the given scale (or another similar to it) is right but how
proper the
> principle of such scaling is in itself. The fact is that neither the
degree of
> proximity to biological needs nor the degree of capacity to
stimulate nor the
> affectiveness of one motive or another determines the hierarchical
relationship
> between them. These
> relationships are determined by the connections that the activity of the
> subject brings about, by their mediations, and for this reason, they are
> relative. This refers also to the principal correlation - to the
> correlation between sense-forming
> motives and motive-stimuli." **
>
>
> I must accept my part in turning the conversations in this direction
>
> as my curiosity does orient more to the interpsychological aspects of
>
> cultural historical theory.
>
> **2. Yes , quite true ! You're quite free to forget about all
principles of the ideology of Vygotsky and the TROIKA AND THE PYATERKA
, Davydov , etc. down to V.P.Zinchndo Junior who has begun to
repudiate His father's findings and whom Mike , as Guest Editor of
JREEP , has talked about and brought forth some of His writings . But
one thing is crucial : By orienting on "interpsychological" , you jump
then to "intersubjectivity" and "agency" and begin to discuss in a way
as if agency is determined within intersubjectivity . Just plz answer
how in what way within intersubjectivity in the absence of any
activity and action . an agentive element rises up ; in other words
just at the level of "semiotics" and without furthering up to the all
interactions and upheavals and incidences , events , if one can reach
the powerfulness of beginning to act which satisfies an urgent or
distant need . Dialogue could be most effective while in the
direction of a goal
> chosen for the action and in the direction of an activity most
important at any moment which the social relations dictates . **
>
>
> Wertsch writing about Leontiev suggests his
>
> focus was on how it is possible to assimilate the "experience of
mankind" as
>
> a foundation for building activity theory grounded in Marx's ideas about
>
> subject-object interaction.
>
> **In my last message , I referred to this point and there is enough
in the quote above about this matter . The passage I sent which was
confirmed as related to the perezhivanie also has enough to say about
that . Then no more discussion . **
>
>
> Wertsch suggests that Leontiev's notion of
>
> activity does extend Vygotsky's focus on the inteprsychological to
the macro
>
> account of social interaction.
>
> **No , Let's never forget that the title of Vygotsky's MAGNUM OPUS
is "Thinking and Speech" . And if he was and is a great marxist , he
knows that speech is born withing the process of Labour requiring a
tool . And I said about the hiararchy of MOTIVES and that even this
same hiararchy is bound to subordinate itself to the requirements of
ACTIVITY . Activity is Molar and non-divisible in regard to its
MOMENTS . **
>
>
> Wertsch acknowledges this extension is
>
> necessary to give a more complete account of cultural historical
processes.
>
> However, Wertsch suggests in the move to this macro level Leontiev
did not
>
> incorporate many of Vygotsky's insights about interpsychological
functioning
>
> and semiotic mediation. In other words Vygotsky did not produce a
complete
>
> account of how INTRApsychological and INTERpsychological planes of
>
> functioning are tied to social INSTITUTIONAL factors. This extension to
>
> social institutional processes is required to go beyond
microsociological
>
> and interpsychological functioning to become a fullfledged analysis
of mind
>
> in society.
>
>
> **To give the MOST complete account of "cultural-historical"
processes , you should , first of all , give the most comprehensive
account of man's life on the Earth . Man is material not semiotic and
leads a material life not a semiotic one ; he uses semiotics because
he has stored tons of actions and events and operations behind them .
Then his best and most effective accounts consist of enumerating the
actions and activities he has gone through . And these were to produce
His history and his culture ; when no history and no culture were on ,
activities and actions were and were for man to survive . Yes to
history and culture but on a final count , and with all the results
emanating from them , they have a material BASE : MATERIAL ACTIVITY .
>
> I prefer to script SOCIAL institutional factors . You quite
invulantarily and repeatedly get back to Micro-Social . Marxism has
Classes and Division of Classes . And their Struggle for Power . In a
not developed society in which Classes have not come to have distinct
boundaries , groupings , layers , guilds , communities of practice ,
maybe habituses come to the surface and begin maneuvering . And we
judge about a revolution be the Nature of the State . Leontyev has a
discussion about if internals act through the externals or vice versa
. He gives his example with S.L. Rubinstein who believes externals act
through the internals . L asks what these internals are and how they
act on the externals . In my last message I noted : TRANSFORMATIONS
WITHIN , MUST OF NECESSITY HAVE THEIR LOOKS WITHOUT . Do you have
anything other than Heredity and Lived Experience in the Internal ?
These have been discussed by Leontyev . And I gave you my coloured /
marked
> version of A.C.P . It is a gist of lots and lots of reading . And I
don't know if Mind comes with the Birth ; What is it ? If it is fixed
or liable to change . And where do Marxists put Mind in their
structure of Philosophy or Psychology . And if we act in such a way to
take some blocks of heredity and others of our lived experience and
try to build our VITAL EXPERIENCE upon them like putting stones upon
stones ; then what about sublimation : TO RETAIN AND RESOLVE THE OLD
IN THE NEW . **
>
> More than for one message .
> Cheers
> Haydi
>
> Haydi, I wanted to open with Wertsch's comments to acknowledge the
>
> centrality of these macro levels on the formation of mind. However,
in my
>
> work and in my personal life I'm pulled to focus more on the
>
> interpsychological explorations of social organization. The notion of
>
> extending the concept of "psychological tools" to the broader notion of
>
> "tool KITS' points to the recognition of multiple genres or "texts" as
>
> various tools to be used in the tool kit to understand social
organization.
>
> These tool kits offer a variety of options about what is permissible or
>
> appropriate to include in our accounts and bias our narratives towards
>
> different planes of social organization. Selecting a particular
genre from
>
> the tool kit places CONSTRAINTS on what can be said and how it can be
>
> expressed. From a cultural historical perspective the particular genre
>
> chosen is itself open for exploration and critique.
>
> The issue of these genres or texts and how they are chosen or
selected as
>
> mediational means is itself an object for analysis within CHAT. Also
these
>
> various tools in the tool kit are themselves constantly evolving and
>
> interacting. Activity theory at the macro level is influenced by
>
> explorations of texts written with an interpsychological focus.
Vladimir
>
> Zinchenko is exploring phenomena at the microstructural and microgenetic
>
> level where perception and action are related below the level of
awareness
>
> outside accessibility to introspection. But he suggests these
microgenetic
>
> processes follow phases, stages, of genetic development. This is at
a level
>
> of the intrapsychological.
>
> My mentioning "active experience" was at the interpsychological level of
>
> analysis. Active experience contrasted with "habits" in Dewey's
language of
>
> social organization. Active experience is when RUPTURES occur in the
>
> habitual ways of responding within interpsychological socially organized
>
> spaces. How we account for these ruptures depends on the tools in
our tool
>
> kit that we use as explanations and interpretations and justifications.
>
> Different tools lead to different accounts.
>
> The question of how we come to share collective memories of shared
>
> experiences at the interpsychological and activity levels BUT also
how we
>
> incorporate "active experience" as RUPTURING experiences of collective
>
> memory is also requiring consideration.
>
>
> Haydi. as Andy mentioned, I'm one of those hesitant to express my
opinions
>
> at the political level. My positions on social justice tool kits
[genres]
>
> such as discussions of "dominant" and "nondominant" genres is
tentative. The
>
> book Vygotsky in the 21st Century suggests the authors in that book are
>
> taking an "outlier" position on CHAT genres. They are exploring the
>
> interpsychological genres of CHAT. They are engaging with themes of
>
> dominant and nondominant genres and the constraints imposed by
various tools
>
> in the tool kit. I think my exploring "alterity" is exploring
similar themes
>
> and has its own biases, constraints, and blind spots.
>
> Haydi, your thoughts have made me reflective on the larger issues I
may be
>
> neglecting in my exploring the interpsychological.
>
>
> Larry
>
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>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
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