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[xmca] RE: Fernando on LSV
Thanks for the reply, Mike.
I think I am starting to get a handle on it. Watching and listening to the
discussion going back and forth is useful for me in constructing my
understanding. I can see where Rey is going in his interpretation of
Vygotsky. I am a Vygotsky enthusiast and have been for a long time (not as
long as you), but I am not a Vygotsky scholar, I am a teacher and graduate
student trying to finish my PhD; because of my day job, I am always looking
to understand how student's(and really all) minds work so I can understand
how better to approach the practical day to day of learning situations in
school and at home with my own kids. I take a broad view because I don't
have the luxury of living in a world where everyone says what they mean and
act as though they mean it. Most of the time, I see a lot of hurt feelings
and rash behavior, and that is just speaking of the grown-ups ;). The
affective-and volitional have always factored into my fascination with
Vygotsky, including what Rey characterizes as the middle period, so maybe I
read his work with that lens?
Only I am still left, as you all are, trying to figure out a way to work,
write and research between those same poles as Vygotsky and others. You
posted Chris Sinha a while ago, did anyone take up with that? I have skimmed
back through the discussions and didn't see it mentioned, but I might have
missed it. I think his work is relevant to this discussion of loss of the
meaning making with the overly simplistic view of sign and tool. Also, from
the same volume that article appeared in, a piece by William Croft, Toward a
social cognitive linguistics. At least from my perspective. Both, pay close
attention to expression and gesture as conveying meaning, and as you mention
allow for the possibility of polysemy. I intend to bring them up in the
discussion of Rey's article. I hope there are more participants in the
discussion.
From: mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 4:23 PM
To: Monica Hansen
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re:Fernando on LSV
As I understand it, Monica, Rey is claiming (and in this agrees with many on
xmca, but not others) that the LSV of Psychology of Art was displaced for
several years by an instrumentalist Vygotsky. LSV liked to quote Bacon:
Neither hand nor mind alone, left to themselves, amounts to much;
instruments and aids are the means to perfection. Bruner highlights this
idea in his 1962 preface to LSV.
This view was easily assimilatable by American learning theorists in general
and those interested in the role of culture in learning in particular. For
the former, it appeared to be a rephrasing of what was called "mediated
stimulus-response learning" diagramed in a triangle with an x at the apex.
For the latter (me, for example) that little x and that kind of
instrumentalism provided a perfect way to think about culturally mediated
psychological processes. Similar interpretations can be made of Dewey.
But such instrumentalism has several (at least) drawbacks. Firstly, it
under-guestimates the polysemy of tools (and of course, the "tool of
tools."). In such under-guestimation it over specifies the goal (e.g., it is
easily reduced to the kind of functionalism that many argue against).
Thirdly, when these two pits are fallen into, it makes meaning MAKING, the
process of constantly imagining the future to be able to act in the present,
disappear from view.
Presumably, according to this line of thinking, the late Vygotsky has thrown
off instrumentalism and become a semiotic theorist. Then the problem becomes
one of not tipping over into idealism in which all is interpretation
obdurate reality "only" imagined.
I am not being so foolhardy to say that any of this is correct. But it is
how I interpret Fernando's argument. Anton, David, Van der Veer, Valsiner,
and others are the one's who can provide a more nuanced view of sequences
and relationships across the 1924-1934 period.
mike
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Monica Hansen
<monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote:
I am still working on the taking in the Rey article. Some of you are so
fast! I need a couple of nights of sleep at least.
In looking at the last bit of this post, Mike, can you clarify a couple of
things? You write that the work from Rey's "middle period" of Vygotsky's
work was more "easily assimilable"? What does that mean? And for who was it
more easily assimilable? For the translators and editors of the earlier
English editions or for the American and English reading audience who would
then go on to use it in their work? And then also, what issues of Larry's
and others do you think the "middle period" fails to orient us on? Is it the
issue with "instrumentalism" and "reductionist" methods and the following
"objectivism"?
Just trying to catch up and discuss. I know I have more to read in postings
so you may have already clarified.
Thanks,
Monica
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:59 AM
To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Article for Discussion
The answer to your question, Andy, is that you should ask if we can post the
williams article for discussion in papers for discussion. After we discuss
Fernando's paper, we could turn to it. I agree, its very relevant, taking up
the Lave-McDermott Marx-->Learning paper from Outlines (I think) and arguing
for use value in education.
As to Fernando's paper, I have a different view.
Roughly, I interpret him as arguing that the focus on the period when LSV et
al were doing "instrumental" psychology, the instrumentalism involved
reductions that had unfortunate consequences but it was this aspect/period
of the work that English speakers focused on. The ties to Dewey here are
obvious and behaviorism ditto
(Skinner was in many ways following the lessons of his interpretation of
pragmatism).
Fernando, reading the outpouring of materials in English sees what he thinks
is a narrow focus and seeks to counter by pointing backward toward Psych of
art and forward to the late work. So, rather than focus on periodization,
wouldn't it be more
productive to focus on the extent to which the middle period which
interested us so
much, perhaps because it was more easily assimilable (for which see passim
all the criticism you care to read on the topic!) fails to orient us to the
issues that Larry and others have been focusing on?
mike
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> Mike, I've been reading this article by Fernando Gonzales Rey, but I
really
> am not interested in discusssing it. His periodisation of Vygotsky does
> nothing for me. I mean, to describe Vygotsky's view of the development of
> higher psychological functionse, as "objectivist" and some kind of
> regression from the period before he wrote "Historical Crisis", which puts
> him in the same basket as Behaviourism, is just so remote from how I read
> Vygotsky, I would rather just bow out of the discussion. I admit, I
stopped
> reading before I got through reading Rey on this period in which Vygotsky
> apparently went backwards.
>
> Any chance we could squeeze two articles out of Taylor & Francis for
> discussion? I would like to see a discussion about Julian Williams' effort
> to connect up a critique of formal education and Marx's analysis of
> capitalism and commodity production. Could we have two going at the same
> time?
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
>> THNX FOR PICKING UP THE MISTAKE< ANDY
>> M
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Mike, you forgot to cc us all, but is the cc above still right for
>> Fernando?
>> andy
>>
>> mike cole wrote:
>>
>>> Fernando Rey on turning points in Vygotsky's thinking was selected in
>>> a last
>>> minute rush of votes. I am having the article posted for all the
world
>>> to read, but meantime, see attached.
>>>
>>> The author, currrently living in Brasilia, is cc'ed.
>>> mike
>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------*
>>> *------------
>>>
>>> ______________________________**____________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- ------------------------------**------------------------------*
>> *------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Joint Editor MCA:
>>
http://www.informaworld.com/**smpp/title~db=all~content=**g932564744
<http://www.informaworld.com/**smpp/title%7Edb=all%7Econtent=**g932564744>
<http://
www.informaworld.com/smpp/title%7Edb=all%7Econtent=g932564744>
>> <http://www.informaworld.com/**smpp/title%7Edb=all%7Econtent=**
>>
g932564744<http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title%7Edb=all%7Econtent=g932564
744>
>> >
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**>
>> Book:
http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227
<http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/
<http://www.brill.nl/%0Adefault.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>
<http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227
<http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl
/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> >
>> MIA: http://www.marxists.org
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>>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.informaworld.com/**smpp/title~db=all~content=
<http://www.informaworld.com/**smpp/title%7Edb=all%7Econtent=>
>
**g932564744<http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title%7Edb=all%7Econtent=g9325
64744>
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> Book:
http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227
<http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/
<http://www.brill.nl/%0Adefault.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
> MIA: http://www.marxists.org
>
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