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Re: [xmca] Dodgy Formulations
**
On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:47 AM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>wrote:
> I have three questions about "Tool and Symbol", which we are translating
> into Korean.
>
> Question ONE (Collected Works, Volume Six, p. 13). Vygotsky and Luria write
> this about Kohler's ape experiments:
>
> В классическом исследовании использования орудий обезьянами В. Келер
> наблюдал форму поведения, которая может быть названа чистой культурой
> практического интеллекта, достаточно развитой, но не связанной с
> использованием символа.
> I THINK THE FIRST TRANSLATION IS CORRECT BRCAUSE IN RUSSIAN "CULTURE" IS
> USED ALSO CLOSE TO MEANING "THE WAY OF"
> I gather that чистой культурой практического интеллекта means something
> like a "pure culture of practical intellect", which is what both Hall and
> the Vygotsky Reader have. But in the context it seems to me that what LSV
> and ARL are really saying is that it is a practical intellect which has been
> cleaned or purified of all culture, that is, one that has only a natural
> history and no cultural history at all.
>
>
> Question TWO (Collected Works p. 15):
>
> LSV and ARL write this:
>
> С генетической точки зрения мы склонны представлять общую
> последовательность основных ступеней развития речи так, как это
> формулируется, например, Д. Уотсоном: внешняя речь . шепот . внутренняя речь
> или, иначе говоря: внешняя речь . эгоцентрическая речь . внутренняя речь.
>
> That is, LSV and ARL are giving the history of speech as external
> speech-->whispering-->inner speech "иначе говоря" external
> speech-->egocentric speech-->inner speech.
>
> I gather that иначе говоря means something like "in other words", or "that
> is to say". But this is simply IMPOSSIBLE. How could LSV and ARL equate
> whispering with egocentric speech? They are functionally and structurally
> utterly different.
>
> Is it reasonable to use иначе говоря here just to indicate that they are
> both stuck in the middle, and to call being stuck in the middle begin part
> of a genetic sequence? This just can't be right.
>
BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WRITE "IN OTHER WORDS" IN TRANSLATION YOU MAY
COMMENT ON WHAT YOU THINK, BUT ONE CAN NOT INTERPRET WHILE TRANSLATING
>
> Question THREE (p. 14):
>
> LSV and ARL are discussing the difference between the way a child solves a
> banana-and-stick problem with speech, and the way an ape solves the same
> problem. I am already somewhat uncomfortable with the whole discussion,
> because although LSV and ARL present this as the most important genetic
> point in the whole of the child's development, they are doing it
> fetishistically, as a matter of substituting a sign for a tool, rather than
> talking about what the sign really represents (viz. empathy, a theory of
> mind, collaboration, cooperation). They write this:
>
> С того момента, как ребенок с помощью речи начинает овладевать ситуацией,
> предварительно овладев собственным поведением, возникают радикально новая
> организация поведения, а также новые отношения со средой. ("From that
> moment on, as the child begins to grasp the situation with the aid of the
> speech, having first mastered his own behavior, a radically new
> organization of behavior appears, alongside a new relationship with the
> environment.")
>
> What am I to make of this? It looks to me like LSV and ARL have the child
> mastering his own behavior BEFORE the child has grasped the situation. In
> other words, inner speech before egocentric speech, and egocentric speech
> before social speech. How is this different from the position of Piaget?
>
DO YOU MEAN THAT PREVERBAL BEHAVIOR IS NON- INTENTIONAL? ABSOLUTELY
UNCONSCIOUS?
David Kellogg
Seoul National University of Education
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--
Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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