Hi Stuart I will try to send it to you again Denise -----Original Message----- From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Gabosch Sent: 16 August 2010 13:54 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [xmca] Refugees and Conception abduction pseudo concepts and Valsiner Thanks for the two Valsiner pages, Denise. And your post reminded me that I couldn't find that Paavola article you attached last week - my computer wouldn't recognized the file, or something. Could someone put that up again? Sorry for the bother ... - Steve On Aug 16, 2010, at 3:46 AM, Denise Newnham wrote: > Dear Paula, Jay, Michael, Andy and Larry, > > These lines have become a bit entangled and so here I shall attempt > to speak > of several ideas but still linked in to our primary abduction-pseudo > concept > discussion. > > 1) Hierarchy pseudo concepts. I after a little help from my friend:) > (Jaakko > Virkkunen, thankyou)It is not possible to put pseudo concepts on a > highest > level. IF we go into Valsiner's Comparative study of human cultural > development and look at Chap 1 (under google studies) we can see where > perhaps the confusion came in. JV states that 'if we look carefully > into > psychology's theoretical domain, we might see regression of initially > constructed concepts into a pseudo-concept...' concepts ( I presume > he is > referring to scientific) regress then pseudo-concepts must be lower. > He then > refers to the works of Smedslund pseudo - empiricism and that they > refer to > empirical investigations in psychology that are devoted to the study > of > issues that are necessarily true such as all Catholic popes are not > married. > Here I can only presume that the process of whatever thinking has > arrived at > a stage of a conclusion that attains social consensus. It is taken > as fact. > > My argument to this line of reasoning is that pseudo concepts contain > abductive reasoning and the realm of initial creativity but that > abduction > (Paavola) are multi composited and sourced. Please see Paavola's > article > that was attached. > > Some pseudo-concepts may through generalization never go to higher > levels of > thinking as the verification is of a very spontaneous nature due to > the > persons motivation to justify, environment in the expanded sense of > the > term. However if they are to lead to discovery that will then be a > source > for development they will need to go through deductive logic and > experimentation (inductive) and then perhaps another moment of > abductive as > the new problems/contradictions arise. But this second stage will > not be the > same as the primary as it has a stronger scientific scientific base. > At all > times this process is an ongoing dialectic, historical dialogue. I > should > give you an example here but you will have to wait for my article :) > > 2) De differentiation: there is a serious problem here and I cannot > understand as Jay did not either how the level of where one can no > longer > speak of something can be reduced to over generalization or fossilized > knowledge. This is as well a complex phenomenon that has been over > simplified in this chapter. Not to mention all the other problems > that Jay > highlighted > > 3)Abductive thinking is said to be weaker only in its form of logic > but not > in its value as in the process of logic. Peirce had two periods of > work on > abduction and as Paavola states they are not mutually exclusive but > part of > the process or given to diverse situations and circumstances. > > 4) Piaget/Valsiner and Vygtosky. This would take quite a bit of > answering > but the basic problem is that Vygotsky had a more holistic view > based on > phylogentic, cultural historical, ontogenetic and microgenetic > development > and so perhaps hard to get closer to when this is not the case... I > do think > that Valsiner has very good thoughts and leave a lot to be done when > working > on individual-and object as containing a dualism > > All said and done I would like to thank you all for this discussion > as it > sorted out the question for me. I shall now look at Davydov, > Leontiev, and > other articles of Paavola and Hakkarainen. > > Denise > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca- > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On > Behalf Of Paula M Towsey > Sent: 13 August 2010 15:47 > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: RE: [xmca] Refugees and Conception > > Dear Denise > > I've been trying to track down Valsiner's "Levels of semiotic > mediation", as > mentioned to you in his email, to get an idea of how and why he views > pseudoconcepts as being at "Level 4". I have so far only managed to > come up > with the excerpts attached here - apologies for the size. (Being at > distance from one's place of learning, and at the antipodes too, makes > accessing texts a long-winded affair: Valsiner's 2007 book isn't > available > on Googlebooks preview and the ILL takes forever...) > > And as I started to read these excerpts, though, your latest post > arrived, > and my immediate reaction was to send the excerpts to you now > a) because I wasn't sure if you'd read/seen this element of > Valsiner's work > or not and it seems pretty interesting to me, and > b) because of the questions you ask about the CL and thinking modes > and the > whole question of pseudoconcepts. > > I am excited about the possibility of this bringing together the > real life > experiences of your CL and Valsiner's work and the whole question of > the > differences between pseudoconcepts, everyday concepts, and > systematised/academic/scientific concepts - in fact, conceptual > modes in a > variety of cultural situations, as Mike draws attention to (and asks > about) > in the video. > > Are you familiar with this aspect of Valsiner's work or not? Do you > think > it may be relevant? Please do let me know - and thank you for these > amazing > threads. > > Regards > Paula > > _________________________________ > Paula M Towsey > PhD Candidate: Universiteit Leiden > Faculty of Social Sciences > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca- > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On > Behalf Of Denise Newnham > Sent: 13 August 2010 12:31 > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: RE: [xmca] Refugees and Conception > > Dear Mike, > > Two things to situate and I reply for the wider network as well: The > Change > laboratory methodology (Engestrom, 1987) was called for by a group of > specialized teachers and a voluntary NGO group called Suisses > Immigres (N+ > 10). They had designed a project called Accompagnateur Mere-Enfant > (Mother- > child facilitator).These were the subjects of the Change laboratory > and the > activity was the project. There were (at the time of the CL) 10 > voluntary > facilitators who were mostly retired teachers or retired persons. > These > people worked in a dyad with a mother and a child. The triad worked > on "how > to do homework with a child". The facilitator was there to help the > mother > to take over the role of guiding her child in homework tasks. After > several > months problems began to surface within the meetings between the two > groups. > The designers of the project or project holders decided to run a CL > under my > guidance on this group of people so there were two going on at the > same > time.The one on the project itself and the other on the > facilitators. The > hidden agenda of this project was to "get the mothers out of their > homes" as > a form of integration. Mothers were the targets as they are, in the > host > population as well, the people that are largely at home in order to > help > with the task of children's homework. Children come home for an hour > and a > half at midday in this region until the age of 15. It is presumed > that the > refugee mothers do not get out of their homes. > > The difficulty that I had is similar to what you mention. The > situation of > the refugee mothers. No prior investigation was done into what they > really > live and how they think. There were many value laden judgments going > on and > were translated into paternalistic attitudes towards the mothers and > families at large by the facilitators. > > The CL is over and micro shifts were achieved. However the > perceptions of > the foreign mothers was difficult to overcome. And now this is where > I have > a gap in the explanation of possible reasons as to why. Obviously at > the > time I would not have been able to run these tests and actually the > idea did > not enter my mind then. What I did do was begin with a group of > mothers (who > volunteered) to work through what integration meant to them and in > their > everyday problems what could be found as solutions in order to break > the > vicious circle in which they lived. The socio-political environment > for > these people is much the same as you described from the book The > spirit > catches you...No they are not entirely isolated this is impossible > but their > minds are still very much in the past. > > Three of the mothers would reason in the same way as the person > encountered > by Luria. However they are not lacking in reasoning as the groups > within the > project would say. They were simple reasoning in another manner. > There way > of thinking reflected their socio-cultural environment of origin. > That is > why I would like to have had an article where you expose this > possibility. > > Many thanks to you all > Denise > > -----Original Message----- > From: Denise Newnham [mailto:dsnewnham@bluewin.ch] > Sent: 13 August 2010 10:13 > To: 'Denise Newnham' > Subject: FW: [xmca] Refugees and Conception > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca- > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On > Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 13 August 2010 00:43 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > Subject: [xmca] Refugees and Conception > > I am responding here to Denise's note about her work with refugee > women. I > have started a new thread because her message came trailing a mile of > previous messages (we need to find some way to not include every > previous > message with a new one; its a special burden when we get very long > threads > and the archive has all the prior messages in a thread anyway). > > Denise wrote (in part): > > I (one of my hats) work with refugee mothers and the concept of > "foreign > mothers" for the local population. I ran a CL [Change Laboratory] > with a > group that is working on integrating refugee mothers so that their > children > can perform better at school. The subjects of this CL had relatively > little > or no knowledge of what happens in foreign mothers lives or world on > a daily > basis. This I attempted to introduce through mirror data and models > etc. > What remains as a question is to me is if these persons minds where > constructed within their environment and they are relatively > isolated within > their new environment what kind of mind is there? The question that > you put > forward at the end of the video is of great interest to me and an > important > argument for involuntary displaced adults. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your note raises dozens of questions for me, Denise. > First of all, I would love to read a description of your Change Lab > experiments. The first question your note brings up is "who > initiated the > intervention?" A central principle of the Development Work Research > Change > Lab methodology, as I understand it, is that focal participants are > the ones > to decide what is a problem in their lives (at work in the work that > I have > read). Are the moms the one's who are concerned about their kids' > performance in school? > Or is this some govt agency's concern? > > If it is the mom's concern, what is revealed about the history and > current > state of their problems as they see them in the mirror? > > What sort of intermediate solutions do they come up with? > Is it difficult for them to use the theoretical model? > > I think that just starting with data generated by the conversations > that are > meant to be evoked by the mirror part of the methodology would > reveal a lot > about how these women think about the world. Anyway, I would start > there > (and for sure would give them Vygotsky blocks to find out how their > minds > work!). > > I understand what you mean, in common sense terms, by saying that > they lead > isolated lives here. But it is not literally true, is it? From the > little i > know about domestic refugee situations, the world around them > impinges on > them from every side. For example, in the book *The Spirit Catches > You and > You Fall Down: A Hmong Child, Her American Doctors, and the > Collision of Two > Cultures *by Anne Fadiman, the Hmong people who are her subject > matter could > easily be said to live in isolation from the life around them in the > Central > Valley of California, but it is an odd sort of isolation as they > struggle to > reconcile the two worlds they have experienced. And its odd for > those around > them who seek to be helpful. And many around them are actively > seeking to > isolate them even as they seek to isolate themselves from "those alien > creatures."At present I am working in an African American community > which > is, so to speak, isolated in a housing project in southeast san > diego. After > a few years of involvement with these folks, the main thing i have > learned > is that there is so much I do not understand that I am constantly > suspending > judgment and seeking deeper understanding by engaging with them in > activities that they think are good for their kids, all the time > trying to > understand the discrepancies from my expectations/values, the > choices they > make, their selective appropriation of the advice that rains down on > them, > and so on. > > I am really interested in the problem you raise, but I almost > certainly have > little to contribute with so little knowledge of the particulars. > Tell us more! > mike > _______________________________________________ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > _______________________________________________ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > _______________________________________________ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Attachment:
Paavola abduction (2).pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
_______________________________________________ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca